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The Importance Of Criticism In music

posted on #21
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If I understand it correctly, it should be a problem, that in WL always only good criticism would be. This is for me a kind of "topos" - if one wants to read only black and white, but not also between the lines.
My personal experience is that the musicians in WL do not only make good music, but also understand how to make very nuanced compliments. This is usually done in a few words and very friendly. Example: a once received compliment of Wade "epic". I was happy at first, then I realized that my solo was too long and exaggerated. These little compliments and short sentences from my circle of friends steer and guide me. Some shape me. That is why I am indebted to everyone.
posted on #22
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We should probably speak about the self-criticism in music :D
posted on #23
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Personally I welcome any suggestions for improvements on my tracks. That does not happen very often, wikiloopers are far too polite for that. Still, on those rare occasions I am very grateful as I found the remarks were spot on... the ever increasing
fear of hurting someone's feelings is
making criticism in any walk of life nowadays quite a delicate matter. But on my tracks, bring it on, thank you for that!!
Edited by TeeGee on October 15 2017 09:32
posted on #24
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Hey, the whole point is that whatever is done, is not Definative. If you don't like that branch, make a new one!
posted on #25
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...oh, by the way, TGee... Your crap!😁
posted on #26
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It's a really tricky one. It's wonderful to get positive feedback but sometimes that's devalued when you see equally fulsome praise going to something you've played that you know has significant issues.

Personally I'd love _constructive_ criticism but as others have said, with so many different cultures and viewpoints it's very easy to get crossed-wires to the point that people can take serious offence over what was meant to be a helpful comment.

Although I sometimes find the relentless positivity here a bit one-dimensional (a bit like playing everything in a major key!) I do think on balance it is one of the things that makes this place such a wonderful and fun environment. :)
Edited by GrooveEnth on October 15 2017 18:01
posted on #27
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Hi guys, I just found this thread and think of the topic.. I admit: I love the positivity, the politeness, the goodwill and the safe feeling: I can upload my music and I can be sure everybody is praising my super dooper add! I love it .. and I love you guys for this .. nevertheless, I would learn more and develope if you as experienced musicians and technicians and writers would tell me what you think could be done differently or probably better.
So what I will do in future: when I am not very sure, that I like my contribution very-very much and I am super confident that I contributed optimally in the framework of my capabilities, I WILL ACTIVELY ASK FOR YOUR HELP!
Meanwhile I am pretty sure that the loopers won't mutate to a group of unfriendly know-it-alls, I am sure you guys are giving support if you see a chance to grow!
posted on #28
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think it is a good thing to get positive critic because you can learn from it my parents, always do that and it made the things I did en do only better. With music it’s hard for them because they both where hearing aids and they don’t hear some tones very well. Because I have to learn a lot in music and mixing is sometimes hard to do right I always use head phones (getting deaf my self) and some times I doubt if the tone of the flute is right because soe flutes are not exact the tone. I have to learn a lot so any help is welcome.
music is the language all people understand so lets make music instead of war❤
posted on #29
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Hello,

I read this topic, it's really interesting.
Critique is important, encouragement too.

I've just creating a new thread, finally it could be linked with this one, because I find that " for me " it lack of critique on my mixes ( for my taste).
The music is not appreciate, no thumb up, ok I'm not frustrated with this, I'm frustrated to don't know why. it will help to grow in " music" to know what's wrong .

I talk here about myself and tracks, but In a general way, I have the feeling that's usual here to " left a compliment and thumb up if you like " and " nothing if you dislike" what a pity, if the review and critique is well done, it's a good thing, No ?
posted on #30
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My plea is: Don't play with fire. Don't play with criticism.
It is not necessary and it does not happen because this is for sure an international musician's site.
Thumbs say nothing about the quality of your music. To understand "thumbs" please look for the "No thumbs Blues" by Anne Cozean, somewhere in this database.
Let us be honest: you'll only meet two sorts of people. The first don't need your critics any more and the second should pay a real teacher in the real world.

Criticism will do no better
:)
posted on #31
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Neronick wrote:
My plea is: Don't play with fire. Don't play with criticism.
It is not necessary and it does not happen because this is for sure an international musician's site.
Thumbs say nothing about the quality of your music. To understand "thumbs" please look for the "No thumbs Blues" by Anne Cozean, somewhere in this database.
Let us be honest: you'll only meet two sorts of people. The first don't need your critics any more and the second should pay a real teacher in the real world.

Criticism will do no better
:)


You're right, the numbers of thumbs or the lack of thumb is not significant to measure the quality level of a music.
But sometime, I would be pleased to know why or what is not appreciate in my music ( if I could tell like is), it could help to progress.
By the way, it's quite touchy to tell some critics to an another musician, but a good " review " could be efficient, for me, if those reviews, critics are made in diplomate way :)

It's important also for me because sometime I've the feeling that I've made a quite good job, but maybe I'm wrong and other times I uploaded a mix, not convicted by myself and my work, and it's finally appreciate, and I understand why.

Quite difficult to be " objective " with his own music, that why I think a good review / critical advises should be good ( in my case)

I' don't wana pay teacher anymore, I've the feeling that they just want my money, and keep for themselves the best tips to be a good musician ( teacher how can I learn " groove " "improvisation" etc .... answer " hmmm you have it or not sorry " :)
posted on #32
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Neronick wrote:
My plea is: Don't play with fire. Don't play with criticism.
It is not necessary and it does not happen because this is for sure an international musician's site.
Thumbs say nothing about the quality of your music. To understand "thumbs" please look for the "No thumbs Blues" by Anne Cozean, somewhere in this database.
Let us be honest: you'll only meet two sorts of people. The first don't need your critics any more and the second should pay a real teacher in the real world.

Criticism will do no better
:)


I found it https://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-58396.php :)
posted on #33
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kimbo wrote:
...oh, by the way, TGee... Your crap!😁


I know, glad to hear :D

P.S. It's "you're" actually. Your grammar sucks big time <3
posted on #34
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[youtube]43QJR66ayrI[/youtube]
So I sang and played an impromptu song(mostly--this was about 3rd take--everyone with different lyrics and maybe different{feelings}[musically]
You can read the below so you don't have to watch my ancient self on this video!🤩🤯🤡

So as far as the topic, maybe I might be off, but here are things I was thinking about some issues.....criticism, competition, courtesy and avoidance.

In art school critiques were mandatory, as they are as helpful to the CRITIC as they are to the receiver of the criticism....Why you say, well, unless you like shoe leather,(or foot )(if you are barefooted), to learn to thoughtfully critique a work, one must not only consider the initial feelings of the work, but also the more analytical aspects of consideration of the work in question. It is a strenuous exercise to properly critique a work.

Level of accomplishment/experience by the person that created the work and based on what they have done in the past is important.
What they were trying to accomplish in a piece?
So based on those two questions, you can work on piecing together an opinion of the work in question.

Just this alone is a lot of work.

Then one can consider if the work is original or trying too hard to copy a "pro" artist.
Beginners are guilty of this as they are sure what sounds or looks good...they don't trust themselves
so they can give themselves a goal of emulating the greats in a field of art.
But hopefully all those times of emulation constitute in a player a source of inspiration, and a texture that pops up in a mature artist's work

Then one can discuss technical aspects of a piece.
This can be a can of worms as long as it isn't spoken in a dictatorial manner.
I'm sure GLAD someone didn't tell Neil Young he had a horrible voice or tone, or Lou Reed, or Tom Verlain played guitar weirdly just because they didn't sound like the "hip and Cool" guys,
but on the OTHER hand sometimes it's the best to receive a criticism like that(if you are self-possesed and determined to become a unique artist)


SO I think I have maybe answered the question why the comments are generally flippantly friendly and lacking an edge of criticism. It takes a lot of work.
It's too much work for people to even give a thumbs up when they listen. Can the 8 or 12 people who thumbed it up just be crazy out of 150 listens?
Maybe they are?

For me (and I must admit I think I have GREAT musical taste, varied and have been deeply involved in music "Listening" for 55 years)
It is hard for me NOT to give a thumbs up if the piece is shall --- I say --a lot of things that kept me listening.
I'm glad I kept listening to Shawn Phillips, or the Shins, or Elvis Costello, or Bob Marley or Cake or Dinosaur Jr or Fu Manchu or Fugazi or Waylon Jennings or Bill Frisell or Primus..........., till I got them
posted on #35
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As always GemmyF, you amaze. Fly on you ancient butterfly and land where you will.
posted on #36
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OK, here is my two cents worth regarding getting criticism on Wikiloops - I rarely get it. However, when I have, it has been in a very positive way. For example DrStrgeglv has occasionally given me feedback on my mixing skills (or lack of...). I've always appreciated this.

One of the very best times of my day is when I get up in the morning, make a coffee, then crack open the laptop and see what comments and thumbs up's I might have received. These comments are invariably positive and really kick off my day on a positive note. This means so much to me.

As some of you might know, I haven't been singing for very long. When I was a kid my Scout Leader kicked me out of the choir because "you just can't sing"...so I just never sang...until a year or so ago. I'm now 55 and am loving both writing and singing.

A couple of weeks ago I answered a local online ad for a vocalist to join up with a guitarist. I went along and met this guy. He played guitar REALLY good. I had shown him a few of my Wikiloops tracks and he seemed impressed. We had a jam at his house for a couple of hours - mostly improvising. At the end of the session he gave me this feedback - "I like the sound of your voice and especially your phrasing. I also really like your ability to write interesting lyrics, BUT you need to practice singing in key. You are OK, but this is where you need to improve. Thanks for coming over, but I'm going to go with another singer who has better technical skills".

I really appreciated this feedback. It was honest, not nasty.

Nobody on Wikiloops has mentioned my "out of keyness", and thats OK. I know that this is what I need to work on (and maybe lots of other stuff as well...like keeping in time). I say keep Wikiloops feedback overwhemingly positive, and if constructive criticism is offered, do it in the good spirit of Wikiloops.

I would also just like to say that the cartoon avatar drawing of GemmyF does not do the man justice. I've just seen his video posted above - he is one handsome brute!
posted on #37
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advice and critic is always welcome for me its what has helped me to grow. for instance I started singing because a cover band I played with had no singer, so I stepped in. I sucked my pitch was the worst but with advice from better musicians I improved to my level now of less suck and more ah that's ok :P Its all in fun for me so if someone has advice for me ya let me have
"Don't eat the Blue mushrooms"
posted on #38
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I appreciate commentaries. Not often did I have negative ones. As far as I am concerned, commentaries and thumbs are a way to say hello and that we care and happy to listen to your creations.

I made very good friends here and it is always a pleasure to see that there is an interest in what I do. And I have a lot of interest in what you do.

Not everybody own the necessary stuff to make exceptional productions. It is home studio music.

The most important for me here are the people I follow and the ones who are following me.

I was here in the beginning and I can assure you that quality never stopped increasing.

Encouragement, friendship and trying to do our best. That's the way I understand our interactions here.

Anything else is not important to me.
:o
posted on #39
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Many of my favorite WLoopers have participated in this thread, and the variety of opinions is terrific. I will add mine.

I think a huge part of WL is positive support - for new Loopers, asking "am i welcome?", for folks putting in their best efforts and stretching, to let other artists know you "get" their intent, just to let them know you are listening, and because it seems like most remixes are largely extemporaneous reactions to templates- a track can be good without every detail being in place, like a sketch.

Like KM I have no problem with criticism- In the past I worked it into my show. If my "art" is "appealing" to "everyone", I don't feel like I'm doing it right. Also, I know I ain't really that good, just good at (some of) what I do, though I LOVE doing it! Anyone can say whatever they want about my skill, taste, or whatever. Or say nothing. I have a feeling GemmyF knows what i'm saying. But in my brief time here I have noticed some Loopers pay close attention and I value their feedback - on the boards or in PM


I think the public forums are good place to say "I actually like this piece", "I admire your continued work", "keep it up" and be supportive. Without knowing artists background etc. It is hard to know how far is appropriate in this setting. But OliVB let me know I might want to pay more attention to structure, and that is way helpful input, even if my goal is to ignore structure.


Some tracks are not "good" but have bent my head, and changed me musically. I want artist to make those tracks!

Lastly(yeah, right) for stuff I really like I try to make positive comments that give some indication of what I like, and show i ACTUALLY listened to the track. I have had some PM conversations that go a little deeper., and it is awesome! abuitmoren is an example of someone who says things that makes me realize he actually listened. Ernie is an example of someone who often says "thanks for jammin!"


BTW if I follow you, that means I like your work enough to want to know when you have a new one out! THAT is a compliment, to me. Thought there is such a volume of material it is hard to keep up with new listening!


I think it is good for the boards to be largely positive, I don't (try not) comment based on my taste in music, but on what works for me in a piece, so artists I admire will build on that. I really like it here at WL, it is inspiring!


Longer than I wanted, could say more, but i'm stopping - Buzz
posted on #40
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La critique vient toujours de ceux qui "savent" ou "ceux qui pensent savoir"
Eux même ayant reçu la critique de ceux qui savaient ou " ceux qui croyaient savoir"
Ces critiques ne conduisent-elles pas tout le monde à faire a peu près, la même chose ?
Réfléchir la dessus !

Criticism always comes from those who "know" or "those who think they know"
Even having received the criticism of those who knew or "those who thought they knew"
Do not these criticisms lead everyone to do pretty much the same thing?
Think about it!
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