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Criticism on wikiloops

posted on #21
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Speaking of constructive criticism, I am trying my best to go pro someday but for now I am happy to come on this site a jam, its great. I do like to write songs on my own and have done a few over the years. Well long story short, I produced another instrumental this week and its on reverbnation.com/kenmorningstar and called The Future Is Here. Would love to get some constructive criticism on this track, I am thinking about trying to publish through Tune core and wonder if its good enough to bother. If anyone has experience with tunecore and can give some advice that would be great!
posted on #22
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I also enjoy constructive criticism I consider myself a somewhat fair player and I play many instruments. As it is with all musicians we all have good days and bad ones. I will post something on the wikiloops and get a lot of thumbs and compliments. When I relisten to what I did I say to myself what happened there that was not how I thought I did. So in closing it is a great thing to get criticism to help see what sounds good to others. And on the wiki it is all about what you want to play and how you want to play it I have played bass on several tracks that other bass players have played on and in my opinion they all sound good just different styles of playing. When I found the wikiloops I hadn't played in 10 to 15 years this site got me playing again and learning how to play again. Music is an individuals taste, not everyone who like blues likes hip hop or vise versa. I have been a disc jockey for 25 years and have found out I could not have every request the crowd wanted. Its like the wiki you can't and won't please everyone. Just be kind and non hurtful when you criticize other musicians work.
posted on #23
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I feel that everybody deserve and need o be encouraged. If there would have been negative criticisms at my first steps on Wikiloops, I surely would have quit. But I was encouraged and more experimented musicians helped me to fix technical problems and gave me positive advices that made me a better musician.

Most of us are not pros. We do our best and we all love music. Not many make a professional career. We do it for pleasure. But in the end, we all need advices. Everyone here have different experiences that can be useful to others. Wikiloops is a community that gives the opportunity to musicians with different skills to play in bands and to experiment different styles of music. I am no rocker but I surely will try it.

We can observe that real good musicians work together. They often create templates that can be used by everybody.

We all like to post our music. It is important to get feedback. I have to confess that I often look at the stats about how many people listened to my songs. It encourages me to work more.
posted on #24
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I think getting honest feedback is difficult because nobody wants to hurt anyone's feelings. Doing away with the thumbs down was the correct decision.

As a natural side effect of removing the thumbs down, most contributors receive the same comments every day regardless of the track. Bad tracks and great tracks receive the same comments. With time stamps on comments, it is clear that users don't always listen to the entire tracks before commenting, rendering the remarks both uninformed and hollow.

There is no guarantee anyone here would get along in real life. It's best to just play the nice game we play as opposed to the alternative which is a nasty competition on Wikiloops for attention and praise.

Sorry if anything I said offended anyone.

Edited by mic1011 on October 14 2014 18:44
posted on #25
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mic1011 wrote:
With time stamps on comments, it is clear that users don't always listen to the entire tracks before commenting, rendering the remarks both uninformed and hollow.

just one thing I'd like to ask -
how do you know if a person commenting has listened to the whole track or not? The datestamp of the comment shows the time a comment was posted, not the playing time of the track the moment someone commented, so before calling comments "hollow and uninformed", please explain how do you know? :)

I agree comments would look different if one had to listen to a track all the way before being able to comment, but even if there were a "current playing time when commenting" information, one would not be sure if thats not the twentieth time a user passes by playing time 0:10...
posted on #26
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Because if someone complements 4 of your tracks within 2 minutes, it's pretty clear that the tracks are being glossed over and then commented on.

The way the site works, people leave comments as they listen to each track.

I'm not looking for a fight, but it would be great if the comment feature was disabled until the track played to completion at least one time.
posted on #27
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ok, of course that perception is right!
I'm not saying I am a friend of those quickly left comments myself. They dont bother me that much either, but I get your point.
Following your suggestion would propably lead to a lot less commenting, and maybe you'd be right about the quality of comments getting a little "better".
On the contrary, if a track has some very obvious flaw (like bad levelling, distorted sound, detuned instruments or whatever), I'd like to be able to point that out in a comment without having to listen to a full five minutes of a detuned song ;)

I believe such a regulation would propably lead to even less criticism on the loops, and thats not exactly what we were after...
One might seek for a kind of delayed ability to post a comment, it doesnt have to be the full song.
I'm really not sure its worth the effort, keeping track who of 17k members has listened to which of the 22k tracks for which time would mean a huge database addition and thus take extra time & server power...
looking forward to others opinions, and never hesitate to offer ideas like this!
Edited by Dick on October 14 2014 20:40
posted on #28
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mic1011 wrote:
(...) most contributors receive the same comments every day regardless of the track. Bad tracks and great tracks receive the same comments.

to take up Mike's point:

I also often catch myself posting hollow comments like "cool track" or simply "nice" and i'm not feeling very comfortable about that. It does not really do justice to the track and does not help the uploader of the remix. But... i think that behavior should not be generalized as "i didn't really listen but i like the guy, so i will leave a thumb and a short comment, no matter how well it is done". Instead, i basically see two scenarios (sorry for that :D):

Scenario A. The listener has not opened his "analyzing ears", he is sitting back in his chair and doesn't have any intention to give a review of how the remix is done. But he enjoys the track and wants to give a positive feedback. He chooses the short way.

Scencario B. The listener has opened his analyzing ears, maybe wants to join the jam and he wants to give feedback but doesn't know how to begin or how to tell. So he chooses the short comment option as well.

Regarding the background, i do not see anything bad about the "hollow" comments. I think these comments are also a part of bringing life into the community. So... in my opinion, even without regarding technical issues, it would not bring any benefit to regulate the comments. And if someone gives you 5 thumbs+short commies within 30 seconds you can at least decide for yourself how much it means to you.

Now i ask for ideas how to help the listener that got into scenario B. How could we motivate him? ;)
Edited by issiro on October 15 2014 12:46
posted on #29
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these are all valid points ! short comments and lack of real useful criticism ...
like previously said i really think that if someone is expecting some kind of criticism after uploading a track he/she should be mentioning that in the description ;)
clusters Clusters CLUSTERS !!!!!!
posted on #30
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Thanks, Issiro. Good points!

I also rarely if ever see any comments about specific parts of the tracks. The comments are intentionally generic and not specific. That way they can offer what appears to be support while in fact it is nothing more than a chore they have to do in order for their tracks to get attention. Don't underestimate how selfish the average person in the world can be! Most behavior has a motive, and in my TINY opinion, around here the motive for most is to get attention on their tracks.

Remember when Prince said he doesn't listen to other artists anymore because he prefers listening to his own music? Think about it.

A valuable comment looks like this : "Man! Killer line at 4:20 in! Nasty plucking at 0:32!"

This type of comment fills the player with joy and for obvious reasons.

Now contrast with this:
"Good job"
" I don't like your music enough to actually listen to it and give real feedback, so instead i'll play it to 10 seconds then say "cool" and move on. By making lots of one word complements, users may believe it will result in more attention and support for them.

In the end, most know all of this deep inside. For my part I will continue to listen to entire tracks before commenting because sometimes the last 30 seconds of a song has something special since a lot of songs build up to a hard finish.

I am going to get jumped on for saying these things but remember, I love Wikiloops and this is all just side talk.
Edited by mic1011 on October 15 2014 13:55
posted on #31
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I had many comments on my music. I remember when Olivbee suggested to me to use a microphone instead of the "plug" for my acoustic guitar. Also some friends told me "too much reverb and delay" (those toys were new to me). And another musician explained to me how to get rid of the "hiss" in my recordings. I look forward for that kind of communication. On the other hand I would not appreciate commentaries in the style: "Your music is bad and I don't like it."

Also, I often quit a song before the end. When I listen to a template with repetitive sections that is offered to the participation of other musicians, I can appreciate without listening to the end.

Wikiloops is free, my music is free. Great deal.
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