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AI on Wikiloops a no-go?

AI on Wikiloops a no-go?

posted on #81
Wade Supporter
Posts: 522
Joined: Nov 25, 2013
zedders wrote:
Can AI do an add?
Can it listen to a track and provide a melody or does it have to always start from scratch?
Can Ai do a starter track that isn't in effect already finished?
Genuine questions.
If it's as limited as I'm alluding to it's going to be pretty obvious if someone turns up and only posts finished tracks.


An example was given several posts up in terms of HOW DO YOU MONITOR THIS? The answer is you can't without someone working diligently screening AI material... and what for? If you're a musician and here to work with other musicians why are you trying to add AI, create templates using AI, have your lyrics sung by AI, or anything else? We are musicians on a site set up specifically for cooperation among musicians. If you're wanting to post templates or adds not from you or finished works that avoid using real musicians, then maybe this isn't the place for you.

What AI currently can or can't do today is irrelevant as the technology is very rapidly changing and will likely be able to do almost anything. The question is whether it belongs here at all. I can't see any "half way" AI that doesn't include a massive amount of scrutiny and judgement.
+2
posted on #82
zedders Supporter
Posts: 243
Joined: Jan 30, 2021
Wade wrote:
zedders wrote:
Can AI do an add?
Can it listen to a track and provide a melody or does it have to always start from scratch?
Can Ai do a starter track that isn't in effect already finished?
Genuine questions.
If it's as limited as I'm alluding to it's going to be pretty obvious if someone turns up and only posts finished tracks.


An example was given several posts up in terms of HOW DO YOU MONITOR THIS? The answer is you can't without someone working diligently screening AI material... and what for? If you're a musician and here to work with other musicians why are you trying to add AI, create templates using AI, have your lyrics sung by AI, or anything else? We are musicians on a site set up specifically for cooperation among musicians. If you're wanting to post templates or adds not from you or finished works that avoid using real musicians, then maybe this isn't the place for you.

What AI currently can or can't do today is irrelevant as the technology is very rapidly changing and will likely be able to do almost anything. The question is whether it belongs here at all. I can't see any "half way" AI that doesn't include a massive amount of scrutiny and judgement.
Not the place for me? I hope I read that wrong but you did quote me.
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posted on #83
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: Jul 2, 2018
zedders wrote:
Can AI do an add?
Can it listen to a track and provide a melody or does it have to always start from scratch?
Can Ai do a starter track that isn't in effect already finished?
Genuine questions.
If it's as limited as I'm alluding to it's going to be pretty obvious if someone turns up and only posts finished tracks.

The answer zedders ?
Is yes it certainly can It can create an only guitar track etc, It gives you an option of a lyrics one, or an instrumental one on suno.com It can also create a only guitar one also.
posted on #84
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 178
Joined: Mar 19, 2022
@zedders: I think what it comes down to is that I want to be able to ask you how you played a particular phrase, which effects you used, what you did in the mix....and all the rest that I would want to learn to improve. Seems difficult to achieve that when is answer would be, don`t know, AI created it.
posted on #85
zedders Supporter
Posts: 243
Joined: Jan 30, 2021
MySounds wrote:
@zedders: I think what it comes down to is that I want to be able to ask you how you played a particular phrase, which effects you used, what you did in the mix....and all the rest that I would want to learn to improve. Seems difficult to achieve that when is answer would be, don`t know, AI created it.
Absolutely!
For the record, I never use anything to generate any music apart from my imagination and sometimes a lot of mouse clicking, no loops unless I made them from my own playing, but I have a goal. I play guitar and recently bass too exactly because if I wanted to add bass I felt very very strongly that I should play it so I bought one.
Mixing, I hadn't considered, nobody ever asked me, I have little confidence but I try. I generally avoid one knob plugins, I want to learn the hard way. AI eqs are, in fact, rubbish! I use Claro 99% of the time. BUT they can be a useful guide to half deaf old gits like me. I don't want to pierce your ears with frequencies I can't hear. Likewise with the low end - my monitoring is not up to the job, I take hints from AI "Bassroom" but again, I go back to the tracks aiming for it to do nothing and learning my monitoring/headphones in the process.

Master - here I'm stuffed but learning and to my shame I'm learning from an AI zero knob mastering program, but I'm getting to the point where I prefer my own attempts.

I'm old school generally but I'll take some AI education particularly eq each end which I either can't hear at all or very inaccurately.

At the end of the day we can't be masters of everything and the playing/performance even if musically drawn on a grid (very hard) is I believe what wikiloops is about. If AI might help shape a mix that's 100% fine with me, we want what we create to sound as good as we can don't we?
+2
posted on #86
DidierS Supporter
Posts: 56
Joined: Jan 18, 2024
Following this discussion, I tried to compose a track using AI tools.
Will I be cursed forever?

#295470
+1
posted on #87
Bradford Supporter
Posts: 60
Joined: Aug 23, 2021
Fear restricts love.

Just be honest and transparent.

If you’re not playing the actual instrument or singing the lyrics, just say so.
+1
posted on #88
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: Jul 2, 2018
DidierS wrote:
Following this discussion, I tried to compose a track using AI tools.
Will I be cursed forever?

#295470


Wow that was amazing !! I can only do about two minutes or les at the moment.They do let you extend it on Suno
but I'm still trying to figure out how.lol
+1
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posted on #89
DidierS Supporter
Posts: 56
Joined: Jan 18, 2024
I am therefore scientifically legitimate to share my experience.:)

Even though I haven't touched any physical instruments, I'm convinced I've made true music:
- choice of theme
- choice of instruments
- interoperability between instruments
- intervention at MIDI level to adjust notes in terms of harmony
- knowledge of scales and chords used
- search for the groove
...
and above all the pleasure of getting something that doesn't sound too bad after all.

Verdict: So, yes, sometimes I prefer to take the elevator than the stairs!
+3
posted on #90
deezee Supporter
Posts: 87
Joined: Jul 2, 2018
DidierS wrote:
I am therefore scientifically legitimate to share my experience.:)

Even though I haven't touched any physical instruments, I'm convinced I've made true music:
- choice of theme
- choice of instruments
- interoperability between instruments
- intervention at MIDI level to adjust notes in terms of harmony
- knowledge of scales and chords used
- search for the groove
...
and above all the pleasure of getting something that doesn't sound too bad after all.

Verdict: So, yes, sometimes I prefer to take the elevator than the stairs!



DidierS wrote:
Following this discussion, I tried to compose a track using AI tools.
Will I be cursed forever?
#295470


You definitely made that your own. Didier... Not just random words in the box and clicked create. You have been more specific about what you would like to hear, and how it should sound. etc something similar to conducting an Orchestra... I think ? :) Bravo
posted on #91
Ezdrummer
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: Jul 20, 2016
I did this and I ask myself: if I had to compete with AI, who would prevail? I would accept being beaten by another drummer, never by a computer because it

plays something that has been dictated to it in words. If this ever happened I would sell the drums.

#295476
+4
posted on #92
Tofzegrit Supporter
Posts: 217
Joined: Dec 14, 2014
There are already plenty of loops or samples users, drums softwares or machines…
Please, let this place safe and use your brain or mood directly connected to your (real) instrument(s)
+5
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posted on #93
rootshell Supporter
Posts: 278
Joined: Jul 4, 2020
One of the motifs of the movie Whiplash is pushing one to the break, to help discover the next "great"...because depriving the world of the next "great" musician would be unjust. Will AI deprive us of the next "great", or will it push human musicianship to some other level?

[youtube]uSIuHYAa7yM[/youtube]
+3
posted on #94
Bradford Supporter
Posts: 60
Joined: Aug 23, 2021
If what you're doing would look really stupid on a video or stage then perhaps it should be in a different category. (Having the audience watch you click a mouse a few times then pop a beer)

I see some remixes here where an actual musical instrument is tagged but it's clearly a preset. Since that goes on then you kind of have to allow anything and everything.


On a different note, AI is going to help some people with disabilities enjoy more fulfilling lives by letting them express themselves creatively.

I've received a lot of negative feedback over the last 12 years doing online collab using electronic wind instruments. I know what it's like to be dismissed and criticized. I actually ran into this quite early and ever since I've always noted when a wind synth was being used. Actually, I got into wind controllers because of a physical issue that stopped me from playing trumpet anymore.

I feel that we need not throw the baby out with the bath water here. I also feel that if you don't really put much effort into something and/or it doesn't come from your true essence in some fashion then you're fooling yourself and robbing yourself from a genuine experience so why do we care if someone AI's their sound?

Mixed feelings all around for sure.
+3
posted on #95
hartmut Supporter
Posts: 103
Joined: Jan 1, 2017
I thoroughly enjoy live, conventional instruments
+1
posted on #96
ROBJOL Supporter
Posts: 307
Joined: Jul 26, 2012
To make everybody happy... Let's have two sections in WL.

One for hand made music played with music instruments and a new one for people who use AI and/or electronic music. (EX: music made with Logic Pro or similar devices and programs.

There is place for everyone but at the right place.
+5
posted on #97
Krasimir Supporter
Posts: 196
Joined: Jan 24, 2016
This is question for milions and there is no straight ansver i beleave. Question is is it Ai for music future or just temporary playgame? As we see in all directions of human life Ai have place. To save wikiloops at this moment , Ai to not prevale and get more than 10% compared with directly played music is YES. But to ignore totally i feel will be mistake. It is same as you to throw your electric guitars, keys,amplifiers, recording software and go back to fully manual instruments and music translation. Progress cant be stopped, just need to be used with care and limited to minimum helpfull level.Wikiloops is an software and electronically based site and fully ignoring progress should not take place.
+2
posted on #98
Tofzegrit Supporter
Posts: 217
Joined: Dec 14, 2014
In every movies, AI takes control and see how human being is dangerous for himself then AI takes control, does the mess and logically… destroy human race for a re-birth.

Nice for having met you all :D
+2
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posted on #99
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 178
Joined: Mar 19, 2022
The point Bradford has raised about AI being an enabler for people with disabilities is a good one. Need to reflect on that.

@Krasimir: Why do you use the term "Progress"? What - in relation to Wikiloops - would progress through AI?

Can I just make one thing clear that`s important to me in this discussion:

I don`t see AI on Wikiloops as a choice between good or bad. I don`t think I even have the right to judge. It`s more a question of do I "fit" into such a community. If AI finds its space here and - as it`s bound to happen - becomes indistinguishable from human music, the output might still be great music-wise but it just wouldn`t be right for me personally.

Side note: What would future Wikiloops meetings look like? Shoulder slapping a la "I really dig the keywords you fed into Suno"?
+1
posted on #100
Wade Supporter
Posts: 522
Joined: Nov 25, 2013
A forum is a place to exchange ideas. However it's not a democracy. Richard owns the site and will set the rules. Suggestions like put together a separate section for AI and having no idea on how AI could be monitored other than "self policing" are frankly very naive when you are on the internet and exposed to millions of people who can't conceive of "self policing". These would be costs, monetary and otherwise as this site is set up for real musicians to interact. There are a myriad of of other sites where one can post their AI tracks and then use this forum to give links. That costs this site nothing and leaves Wikiloops to the single purpose that it was designed for. Is this really hard to understand? Should the few individuals who think they need AI be dictating to everyone else?

As individuals you are free to do whatever you want and need to do. If it's preaching, this isn't the place. If it's promoting a political idea or individual that's not allowed. If it's playing standards/covers that's forbidden. If it's being abusive towards others, that's not allowed either, but there are lots of sites that thrive on all of the above. Wikiloops just isn't the place and I frankly think that this isn't a place for AI either. It flies in the face of what this site stands for as much as all the other taboos mentioned.

So far I haven't heard anyone say they are willing to be the full time monitor for AI, or donate the $$ required to set up a separate section of this site for AI. Yes, that's what it takes as there is no "self policing" when your doors are open on the internet. Policing requires monitoring and rules that are EASY to enforce.

What we have works for that majority of us. If you can't live without AI, then the answer is really simple. Use AI somewhere where you are welcome and will be happy. Don't try to force others to give up what's precious to them.

There is no accommodation for AI without a great deal of time and money spent to control what will otherwise swamp this site.

I've said more than enough and am frankly tired of wasting time on a discussion where people are trying to insert a technology that will destroy something that means a lot to me and many others.

Richard will hopefully address this soon. My only hope in having spoken out was to open some eyes to the costs and consequences. If those promoting AI are blinkered, there is no reason to comment further.

To Dorothy: The Defense rests...
+1
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