Tracks vs Songs (The dying vocalists)

Apart from everything else we do have some great vocalists on Wikiloops. But are we giving them enough space? While it`s relatively easy to add bass, rhythm or solo guitars to tracks regardless of where you are in the tree or simply plastering keys all over a track (yes, that`s me) it seems to me that vocalists are having a hard time here.

One thing I noticed when browsing through the Loops was that most vocal additions seem to come very early on in a tracks lifecycle, when the verses aren`t yet filled with multiple instrument parts. In fact it seems most tracks that feature vocals are actually composed with vocal parts already in mind. Nick (rootshell), Shamika or Mary (Grathy) are good examples. Elsewhere, our Queen of the trolley service - whose vocal and cookie contributions we all admire - is nearly always second in the tree before the space in the track gets filled by loud guitars. The only real exception I`ve come across is Billy (Wildgoat) who has the talent to simply sing over anything (including trash metal guitar solos) and still make it work.

Should we be thinking more about track structures and leaving spaces for vocalists? Should vocalists upload more HDs so that others can play "around" the vocals?

Any thoughts?

---

I don't know, to me the problem is not the tracks, but the fact there are very few singers on Wikiloops. I'm not a singer, but sometimes I wish I could sing a little bit more but at home it's quite difficult to record vocals, you can't plug your vocal cords directly into an interface, that's the main problem! :D It's easier to plug an electric guitar. Same problem with drums, not many drummers on Wikiloops, a lot of programming instead.

---

Thank you Alex and Joe. Not quite what I expected as answers, so all the more valuable.
Maybe it`s the project aspect Joe mentions that I was refering to. I suppose in a project/band situation you make a much more conscious decision of where to give the vocalist space because you know that you have a vocalist whereas in the general upload section you just fill the available spaces without thinking of potential other adds, which might just kill opportunities for vocals.

---

As one of the the "dying" sole vocalists here, I can only speak from my experience.

My problem is, I 'm not comfortable singing lyrics that others have written, especially if I don't agree with the sentiments. I also like to use my own melodies to match the feel of a song. This limits me to adds on drum or percussion tracks, or very classic genre patterns like Blues.

If I have a nice lyric that doesn't fit I will usually just add a 'spoken' vocal track.
If my voice is wrong for a musical style, I usually morph into a different character. On occasion, you have to be a good actor or emulator to do vocals :)
I do arrange vocals for single instrument templates sometimes where I go back to the simplest mix.
If I add one of my vocal only templates it's very hard for anyone but drum/percussion to add without much time spent on key, speed and timing - this is rarely regimental :) Musicians often have to follow a singer who likes to drag out notes and phrases.

I don't think you have to be pitch perfect to sing songs where you can infuse lots of character, make it rough, make if silly, make it sexy or aggressive. If you want to add to a real head-banging Rock mix ... you just SHOUT!

There are very few vocal only mixes or duets at wikiloops as far as I can tell.

---

My original post was written out of pure curiosity, as I have no truck with singing myself. In fact, I`m a fully paid up member of the "can`t hold a note" fraternity. But I want to understand this a little better.

Is this right: Vocalists either need a "proper" arrangement of a track, for which the band/project rooms on Wikiloops might be the best environment, or they need to get to a track in its very early stages?

And yes, I fully get the point about "owning" the lyrics to make it work

---

There's plenty of tracks here that are perfect for singing, and I'm not a singer, but sometimes I have a lot of vocal ideas. The problem is that recording vocal at home is the most difficult thing. Most of us don't have a proper home studio where you can try vocal ideas without being upset by your family or your neighbours. There's the lyrics aspect of it too, for me it's quite difficult to write lyrics, I'm more at ease with guitar playing, but I'm 100% sure if I had a proper home studio you would get to hear a lot of my mediocre singing! :D

---

I believe wikiloops aim is to be available and accessible to everyone, not just the musicians with all the best equipment, facilities and experience. It should be a place where a bedroom singer or a tambourine shaker can join in, in whatever limited way they can. If all you can do is knock out a couple of chords on a guitar or keyboard, there's enough scope to get some action surely. Hell, if all you can do is clap, whistle, "La-la" or shake your maracas, let it be.

Wikiloops just want enthusiastic, friendly, accommodating folk whatever their talent. I sometimes get the feeling that newcomers (in particular) may be intimidated by the superior pairings and close-knit groups, how do they find a place in the melee of regularly selected adders ?

We give people a welcome and encourage them when they first arrive here, but after that it's a case of pushing themselves forward, networking/schmoozing their way to recognition.
Dare I say that singing is the one musical thing people can do without any training or practice, it's such a subjective art - unfortunately many people shrink in horror at the idea because they don't think anyone will want to hear them. I say "have a go" sing your heart out, who cares if you don't sound like others expect you to sound :) There is always someone who will like what you do.... remember, listeners don't always have discriminating ears. <3

---

Is this right: Vocalists either need a "proper" arrangement of a track, for which the band/project rooms on Wikiloops might be the best environment, or they need to get to a track in its very early stages?
******
Good Question! As a singer, I choose songs that don’t have a lot of adds because Less if always the Best for me. I am easily distracted by other instrumental voices, so want the bare minimum instrumentally in order to find the melody that’s right for me to sing. I don’t need a “proper” arrangement - just enough to give me a germ of an idea for the lyrical theme. If a song has 50 adds, I’ll simply find one with 2 or 3 instruments, and use that. So “early stages” means less complex to me, and that is, indeed, what I personally prefer. A vocal only mix with Marmotte, Moonchild and me is at Jam 178428 (couldn't get link to work). They DO happen!

---

just chiming in as a guitocalist :)

according to Joe, it sounds like i missed a time where tracks were abundant with vocals and not enough music was being made to satisfy the hungry voices :)

all kidding aside, i agree with most here. as Alex has said, it takes equipment to properly record vocals. singing is something someone can do w/o buying anything, but to record, it does require equipment and some 'quiet space' and some technical 'know-how' these days.

then there's lyrics, i find it hard to come up with stuff, and as others have pointed out, sometimes working with existing lyrics isn't ideal either (fitting/structure/content/etc).

then there's the 'full story' of writing/singing something. i often will listen to something, and maybe come up with a chorus or an intro cadence/style...and that's it. i'll email myself the words and track number....and it sits because i can never write the full story. that happens a lot. happened today on my drive to work :)

i think the songs are out there (in wikiloops), finding them is probably the problem. getting caught up in what's new as opposed to searching for stuff is something i fall into.

but everyone is different, some want to write their lyrics and develop it because of the tone/mood of the music. some like a complete song, like my friend Alan (wikal21), he seems to prefer a full track. some have very unique styles, and maybe find it hard to find a template. and i don't know, for me, vocals is hard lol. takes more time and thought, and sometimes i just want to jam :) :W

---

Hmmm, speaking as a relative newcomer to the Loops (slightly over 2 years now) I've tried to stick what I took to be the unwritten law or what I saw as the best practice behaviour. Be nice, explore tracks, use them to learn and improve your playing and on the occasion you think you might have something interesting to contribute, do an upload.

What Joe described is something that's taken me a bit by surprise. Maybe because it's not happening anymore on that scale or that I've failed to see what's in front of my eyes. Collaboration of many on a single track? Slicing and dicing and remixing to get a collaborative result? News to me, but good news. I got the impression these last couple of years that that was something that happened in closed off band projects only.

Need to tread carefully now, but if anyone needs an outsiders input on anything, let me know. Even if the strategy is to do the exact opposite of what I propose.

@Nick: What's keeping you from uploading your lyric snippets so that other Loopiepoets might add a line or two?

---

not sure others would understand the angle or how i hear it in my head, here's one from my email, just 2 lines:
https://www.wikiloops.com/backingtrack-jam-286914.php

Wishing Well

there was a man he was down in the dumps
fell in a well now has dinner with the Trumps


not sure anyone would contribute to just 2 short lines, but it was an idea, sorta nursery rhyme style, but yeah, i don't feel people would 'adlib' to things w/o an example of flow/timing...basically, a lot to get across that would require some amount of time for possibly no interaction at all :)

---

I have an amateur vocalist question :
Forgive my embarrassing ignorance but how do you determine when the arrangement calls for clucking like a chicken?
[wl]174139[/wl]

[img]https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/a096a1f4-395f-40ea-ac25-e0c67036515a_1.147aa9910ccf4a95b70950bc898c6dd9.jpeg?odnHeight=768&odnWidth=768&odnBg=FFFFFF[/img]

---

This is a great thread. Got me thinking about my contributions.

Just to add some two cents.

Context - I have been looping for ten years and uploaded north of 300 vocal tracks/jams across a range of styles and genres. I am a male mid 60yrs bluesy singer so the 12 bar jams tend to be my defaults. 16 bar rock pop folk and country style tracks also attract my attention. I occasionally venture into jazz and funk cos the musicianship is most times insanely good and irresistible. I record in Garageband with an M Audio USB mic plugged direct into the Mac. Master in Audacity.

I am lucky in that lyrics come very easily to me. I have loads on the hard drive across various genres waiting for the right jams. And for me to be less lazy and record more! I also look to keep flexible and adapt them where necessary to fit the vibe, beat and feel of the track as I sense them. A good collaborative result is always the goal. I have also uploaded some to the Lyrics Vault though I get that not everyone likes to sing other people's words.

The song structures I go for are generally straightforward (ie 12 or 16 bar aaa and ababab verse chorus verse chorus) so pasting in or stretching verses and choruses by a couple of bars is not too tough, though I do look to keep an eye on not making the thing too long and potentially boring. If this is happening I will look to cut the lyrics. Most of these jams come through the news feed. If there have been subsequent adds I will chase them down the jam tree. I will listen for something that sparks some resonance in me and add it to a Priority playlist. I will then scroll through my Finished Lyrics folder and pinpoint possible matches. Or sometimes write a new lyric on the spot if the track sufficiently inspires. Final decisions as to pairing song and lyrics get made and the vocal gets recorded.

It's true that a lot of tracks don't always leave much room for a vocal add. Having said, there is usually a verse and a chorus in a track that is singable; where this is so, I will create an arrangement in GB by pasting that verse/chorus in between the lead phrases and then fit in the vox. Not sure if doing so is bad form or against WL protocol but no one seems to have ever picked me up for it. I do this from a sense of how I feel a sequence arrangement through a song best fits together, which is probably more production than musician. It may not be perfect but at least it gets a song up there for others to play with and look to improve both it and their skills. I also look to upload the solo vocal for remixing.

Personally, I would welcome song structures that are a bit more complex - bridges, middle eights, grand intros and endings. These would more closely reflect (dare I say) "real world" songs and help to round out and complete a lyrical story. Not necessarily in a finalised sequence but perhaps cut copy and pasteable ideas and sketches that can be arranged into an overall template. Be great for Prog style collaboration.

Early or late in the jam tree? Depends. I try to go early for Frenzie style guitar boogie blues or FrankieJ acoustic so that they are open for adds. I go late for Marceys and Tof jazz rock tracks that are clearly finished but have clear space I can develop for the vox. Otherwise I get in where I feel I can. IF I can - I won't force a vocal into a jam if there's no viable space for it. There are lots of other jams out there.

LittleWing is correct about cycles and new Loopers coming through. We all have phases of creative wave highs and lulls. Some periods are more productive than others. And getting listens and remixes from the new folks is a cool blast!

Also Shamika's point that the Loops being open for all to have a sing and an add and a lyric write without critical judgement is fundamental. The more we do, the better we can become (if this is what is desired - not everyone always does or feels the need). Wikiloops is an amazing platform for safe creative expression across a spectrum of musicianship calibres. The newbie is free to jam with the old lags and hopefully get some satisfaction and recognition for it. And I love it. Long may it last.

Cheers all, let's keep the music flowing!

Brian ;)

---

I agree with Al-Fadista. I think it's not necessarily just the missing tracks for singers, but there are far too few singers on the wiki. I would really like to have voices in my uploads because I can't sing properly myself. But since singers rarely take part, I don't dare leave room for voices. I always think that I have to add guitars to everything so that it doesn't get too boring. But maybe that's why the jams become boring. I don't know it. Maybe my jams are just not suitable for voices? Maybe there is also the possibility for a singer to contact you via message if he is interested in a jam but just needs more space? I would change the arrangement at any time.

---

Maybe we should just be more proactive in asking our vocalists in how a particular track should be changed to make it more accessible for them?

One thing I tried to do last year was to take 'finished' instrumental tracks and rearrange and restructure them in a way that creates space for vocals. Problem was that a) the remixes tended to be too long, b) lack of HDs and c) still getting to grips with my DAW.

But I think at the next opportunity I'll just directly ask our vocal acrobats for their input.

---

This could possibly be the best way. When you have finished a piece, simply write a message directly to the singers who seem suitable to you, and not just when several remixes already exist, but at the beginning, when only a few instruments have been used. Simply ask whether he/she has the time and desire to participate - including the possibility of changing the arrangement accordingly. I think I'll try this out soon.

---

When singers sing it's because they are inspired to do so? As an instrument player it's the same for me. You hear something that isn't really there? The simplest thing can inspire. The fuller a track gets the narrower the opportunity is. Could be rhythm or melody just won't work.

And that single track thing. So often what I might want to add is pointless because someone up the chain has locked down the mix by not providing the separate track.

I mess about sometimes trying to phase cancel the backing track with the version they played over. It can work really well, but only if the contributor played without messing with the mix they played over so usually partial success which is sometimes enough but jeez, life would be more encouraging if people would supply that solo track! It's unnecessary, boring and frustrating "work". :)

Maybe they would if they realised that by doing this they are putting off a lot of people from adding to their contribution which could be fantastic (even more frustrating) but impossible to deal with as LittleWing's example.

Hey @Shamika, you provide a great selection vocals which vary from intentionally (and successfully) funny to pretty serious. I notice you try and hide your more serious side behind a wall of reverb. :) Or I thought you did, but turns out the muffling aspect is resonance - so here we go - if you had provided a single track poor old me wouldn't have to do all the phase cancelling engineering to get enough vocal separated to deal with the low mid resonance and mix it back in. Even then... not as good as it could be. I'm referring to one particular track which I went to this length just to hear it because it sounded like there was much more performance nuance and detail hidden in there.
It's track #292433 by the way, it's really lovely when you can hear it better. I could post my effort if you liked, or, you could be daring and add a (preferably reverb free) single track I could use. Or, if that's too baring, host one on drop-box or anywhere and message me a link. I would reapply a heap of reverb before anyone heard it. lol. Seriously though, I get the massive reverb thing, I just think it needs doing differently so it's still as big but not drowning the vocal - there are ways. :)

[edit] I see that track is no longer available, I don't know why, what a pity.

---

Brian made some good points from his vocalist perspective, he mirrors my thoughts in many ways <3

I'm essentially a lyric writer, the singing is just a 'needs must' thing.
Everything I hear or record online is via a £9 headset I picked up in Aldi. I downloaded a free workstation 15 years ago for mixing and effects so I can do lots with that to make my vocals less ordinary. OK, I can see your disgusted faces now but It's not worth updating my equipment for the amount I do online. I'm quite happy with my lack of finesse, people don't have to listen.... and I'll probably delete stuff that no-one has remixed.

I've been realizing lately that I'm struggling to do much at the Loops, I'm really not set up for it, It's amazing I've managed to put anything out at all.

Getting back on topic however, if I do fancy joining in and can't find space on a track, it's not a problem, I just lower the volume on the backing. But if the mix already has a feature solo instrument I think that becomes the 'singer'
I don't have the patience to listen to songs longer than 3 mins unless they are irresistible. If I download a mix longer than my boredom will allow then I'll either cut it short or even speed it up!

If anyone is struggling with lyrics I may be able to help. If I hear a musical arrangement the words and melody just come into my head. The spirit of my muse (Sophia) is ever present. Thanks x

---

I've often thought that certain aspects to a track upload might be mandatory settings, like BPM and key. if you're a vocalist who likes a certain key, the search function would be much more useful.

---

Someone should be mentioning Wikiloops on vocalist forums on facebook. I dont belong to any but keep in mind you have to be respectful how you word the invite to check Wikiloops out so that it isnt a hijacking of the forums members.
Find out if mentioning 3rd party sites is prohibited in that group.

It helps if you find a track that is proven to be a vocalist magnet and provide a link with the invite so they can hear. Actually track #178428 is a good one for people to check out.

Facebook forums have plenty of vocalists who are not aware a website like Wikiloops exists.

Its like fishing. You make a post, the vocalist takes the bait then you set the hook and reel em in!

---