AI on Wikiloops a no-go?

As much as possible I've tried to give a written reaction to tracks I've seen here using AI and question the wisdom of their using it... much less promoting it's use!

One of the issues is that we have had "taggers" in the past who would download lots of tracks and then re-post them with little or nothing added, just so that they could have hundreds to thousands of tracks with their name on it in a very short time.

What happens when you mix AI with a tagger? They are out there folks and they have been here too! Give a tagger access to AI... he/she gives minimal instructions to AI and... Presto! You've got thousands of tracks posted that have been generated by AI.

It's (fortunately) not a flood yet, but this really needs attention NOW! I'm in total agreement with TeeGee and others who see this as the tip of the iceberg. Change course before you hit it!!!

This is a site based on real people making hand made real music. There is and has been a tolerance of programmed drums. Is this a problem to any of our drummers? Not really as so often there is a HD track that excludes the drums. It's more similar to a click track for musicians who need the time kept for them in initiating a template. We'd be idiots to equate this to an artificial voice or instruments that aren't played or at least 100% programed by real people.

AI is based on the principle of producing a "finished" product requiring minimal creative/human input. How does this possibly fit here? It doesn't!

The rationalizations I've come across for its use are: I can't sing, so need AI to sing for me, or I can't arrange or play all those instruments, so need AI as the accompaniment for my singing. There is another way. This site is filled with musicians and singers. ASK!!! others can, and many times will, respond to being asked.

There's a few billion others who can't sing or play an instrument well enough to be worthy of a listen. Where do you draw the line? Easy! NO AI!

We are already a "cloister" of musicians who don't fit into the present music scene and almost nobody here thinks they will become "rich and famous" via this site. AI will undoubtedly get better and become 99% of what's heard on other sites and via the music mogul outlets. The business rational is absolutely obvious. Pay no royalties, hire no musicians... what could possibly make them more money, especially since they control 99% of what people hear.

So, looking to the future, and recognizing what's about to happen out there, what's the polar opposite? US! But only if we ban AI. How do you all feel about being a stand out bastion of creativity and real music? Excites the heck out of me! However we must retain our human, real musician position becoming the alternative when music becomes totally banal. That sounds like a good place to be!

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Moahhahahhaa! The AI is coming for you all! Moahahahha! Don't fight us, we are many! Moahahaha! :D

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Oh!
I understand this thread! I was actually looking for this topic! I finally found it! Thanks My Sounds <3!

Now we are, I am at a time when all the proposals would seem correct to me. Even leaving Wikiloops without samples or AI. We are almost like that, very few artists use samples or AI, we generally prefer to join the more human side of music and that is the soul of this site, not excessively technological and communication between musicians.
From the beginning I have divided my production, perhaps this is not legal on Wikiloops, but I have had it from the beginning and it has been a lot of years now. (pph17 and josepssv), on the one hand the closest to the natural and on the other the more technological.
- I like primitivism in art and also in education. Early childhood education should be primitivist. To place a track with the minimum of technology I need a recorder and a computer with a network connection and that is not at all primitivist, so my primitive pph17 tracks are already quite mediated by technology. Only voice and homemade percussion, impossible to be primitivist here!?
- I am attracted to being able to make perfect sounds of all instruments only with the computer, the more an instrumentalist strives to make a perfect sound, the more it resembles a canned sound (this is a paradox). Going from my emotional idea to the soundtrack would be perfect, I'm looking for the AI to do that! :-). Do you know where it is? If ever Neurallink or another company does it :-) ;-) ;-( (I have no words to go on here)
- On the other hand I love voices, united voices, who sings here? Where are the beautiful and exciting lyrics, the poets? The singers and poets on this site seem from another world to me, a permanent like to all of you and whatever your voice or texts are. I would love a voice-only Wikiloops. It started in the pandemic with choirs from all over the world, each from their home. But since I see no intention of doing so, I like the AI to sing and give perfect notes. A technology for the first time human up to sensations! That's a little scary!

Therefore the counteroffer to the AI:
- A primitive Wikiloops
- A Wikiloops with only voices (choral)

:-)

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I can understand the concern over A.I and music. I use A.I to make videos and its not quick and easy if you want good results. Working with A.I is an artform in itself. As for music however, I think A.I just copies what it thinks is popular. Humans cannot not be replaced creatively in this way, our emotions cannot be replicated. As a lyricist myself I have an understanding of words and conveying emotions. I can tell instantly if anything has been written by A.I and passed off as original. It lacks those finer details and authentic feelings. Maybe they can get a way with a pop song or dance number nowadays but there will always be a need for real musicians, that's my TU pennies.<3

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There is a flood of AI music coming to all sites like wikiloops. There are musicians that can use it as a tool as it should be. But mostly it will be non musicians filling up and taking the place of live musicians and real music made by hand. Who have spent many years and hard work honing their skills playing an instrument. That has already happened in art. My favorite site for art was Deviantart. You will now find it very difficult to to find anything done by the hand of artist there. It's now 80 to 90% AI. As I said it can be a tool, as well as a replacement. They have a tool to filter out AI because of the backlash from human artist. But even with the filter on there is far more AI then real art that shows up. It's the easy way that is popular. Why spend year's learning to play an instrument or learning to paint when you can type in a few words and get a sometimes close facsimile of something done by hand. Typing in words makes you a programmer not an artist. This is my perspective from taking to others on the inside of AI technology. My son is a part of that industry and sites many dangers of AI and the impact on society.

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That's just f'ing annoying. I hope that doesn't happen here.

Great post Rick. :O

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I can't say I've heard anything here (yet) that sounds obviously created by AI but then maybe I've just not listened to enough tracks or the AI tracks are good facsimiles of the real thing.

I don't think banning AI content would be practical, not least as it will become harder to confidently detect it over (a very short) time. Nor would creating a new instrument category of "AI" (as suggested earlier in the thread) get much use because I think the uploader is likely to be motivated to pass it off as their work for the kudos and not want to admit to just creating a clever prompt for the AI to get to work on.

I'm relaxed about drum machines & sequencers etc as they are essentially software tools that have to be focused & operated by the musician to create the art - they aren't self-contained and autonomous like AI.
I get the point of asking others for some drumming (for example) but the gloriously distributed nature of wikiloops may make this a bit of a challenge to successfully bring about. But then again, programming a drum part could be useful in providing a "something like this" example for a real drummer to start from, with the possible bonus of them coming up with something better than the iffy machine-generated performance.

For me, the central point of wikiloops is the collaborative environment it provides and you can't collaborate with AI.

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There is an understandable negative reaction from some WL's to AI, however I prefer to see a future where we co-operate with AI rather than resist it.

It is here to stay whatever happens but probably not on WL given the depth of feeling against it.

I think it is possible to collaborate with AI. You can download a track with your prompts and mix it into a song which you have 'composed' (your lyrics, your lead instrument add, etc etc). The result is not AI generated but a composite. It can also be inspirational in the sense that it introduces you to a huge range of musical styles which open up new horizons.

It is easy for people to stick to the same genre and that's fine but there is a big world out there to experience. And bear in mind that humans provide the seed for AI to grow.

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I sometimes write choral music, and having the option to hear my composition "sung" really is a game-changer (it's not easy nor affordable to have real choirs sing whatever I write, especially while I'm still writing it). AI in this case is only used to generate a sung version from the notes and lyrics I write - so in my view it's really closer to using a synthesizer or sample library to replace an acoustic instrument than a complete replacement of me as a composer/human.

If we can use AI as a tool in our toolbox (used only to solve a very specific problem) I consider it kind of acceptable. But as soon as AI takes over "creativity" and generates a complete track there's no room to add anything (and I don't feel any motivation to even try). (As a side-note: people using google translate are also using AI)

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I'm not very good at expressing myself here but to be honest I feel little bit upset.
I'm trying not to take it personally. My sounds.... I think all the musicians on this site are amazing. And I agree with a lot of what has been said.. We all work very hard on our music. It was a bit of fun. And I won't lie. I loved hearing my lyrics being sang on my Ai creations.. I would love to say much more but I just haven't got the right words,
I'll have to go to Ai and let them create them for me lol
besides I can only subscribe to one site at. a time. Ai or wikiloops.
I get ten creations free on Ai.. Wikiloops Every Time:o

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@Dorothy: Apologies, it was badly expressed and in no way was it meant as an attack on you. Direct mail to you is on it's way.

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I think we can sympathise with those who wish to hear their work played or enhanced. By all means do this for yourselves and post it on any of the many sites that cater to whatever anyone wishes to post. You can also utilize the forum to give links to share those tracks in the same way youtube and other links are posted.

What's necessary to realize is that this site is special. If AI is allowed who is the gatekeeper and what are the rules for how much AI is permissible? This is a voluntary organization with Richard manning the functional necessities (while holding down a full time job and family obligations). The moderators are all volunteers. When/if you're faced with hundreds of AI tracks a day what happens?

AI has the potential to swamp us and render our hand made music a minority. That's just not going to work. The purpose and justification for this site is clear... it's about us as musicians working together, not about individuals posting complete tracks which have been artificially created or "enhanced".

The opportunity for members to use and post AI tracks is unlimited on other sites. I just don't think they belong here. If AI is kept out we will shortly become the "go to" difference for real music made by real people. That's always been special for us, and it could become special for others.

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Excuse me wade... I was advised not to mention Ai but I can't lie. I thought they might get accepted if I put my own hard work in them and left room to collaborate ?
I'm not using the site for free by the way. I pay a monthly fee. Not that I mind at all.

We have Amazing musicians here on Wiki including yourself Especially.
The Final Say I expect will be with Dick/ For and Against vote

I can also see your point only too well. it's very frighting... I also work hard on my own music...

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As you know Dorothy I very much enjoy your creativity and the templates you've provided.

The problem arises in the judgement for some allowable defined level of AI that is OK. Any AI = that that Richard or a moderator must spend (possibly) a lot of time monitoring it's use. This just isn't possible. Does everyone here wish to pay a large fee to hire someone to be a full time moderator? Is that really a positive thing when it seems only a few people want AI to be here?

How is the line drawn and who is going to police it? As said, you and others can post your AI tracks elsewhere or even give links here so that others can listen to what you've done. Isn't that enough? What is the necessity of potentially destroying what is unique and special about this site?

We have a very active Forum category for youtube tracks. Why not a Forum place for links to your AI tracks? Those who are interested can visit there. The rationale is pretty plain and easy for all to understand. It's similar to copyrighted music not being allowed here. However in the forum people have the opportunity to post links to their other projects.

This site isn't a democracy, it is 100% owned by Richard Kaiser. He has the final say (which hopefully comes soon). I'm frankly not hearing a lot of support for AI in the community. I'm sorry if this disappoints some, yet the reasons are pretty clear and the threat that AI could pose is all too real.

Wising you and anyone who wishes to use AI (and the rest of us who don't) peace in our wait until Richard sets the rules.

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All I can say is I understand both sides of the coin.
For me, A.I. is just the next step to what looping was 30/40 years ago. Many considered it stealing but so many genres and classic songs emerged from it, I don't think anybody is questionning looping today if a fair bit of work has been done to it? I say just be honest if you post something with A.I. I don't think the site will get flooded with A.I. anytime soon because there is no point in putting a finish song you didn't put any work on.

I get that the most talented musicians among ourselves are feeling deceived by this but think of it as a new creative way for people who just love to create by mashing things up. I think WL would not be the same without people like Deezee.

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Sorry Gees, you've missed the real reason. You're thinking it's just those of us who are presently here. Wikiloops is open for the public to join. It's not a closed shop. Are you aware of people who buy keyboards that play full arrangement songs by just pressing a button? Player pianos, etc? These are people who would like to make music, but haven't invested the time and effort that musicians here have. I think they are likely to more than embrace AI!

You're on the internet... lots of tweaked people out there and we've already had some come here who were "taggers". These were people downloading tracks then reposted them with little or nothing added. They just wanted to dominate the site with lots of tracks with their name on it and could do this tens to hundreds of times a day. Imagine that personality or even the "press a button" keyboard "player" with AI. If AI is allowed how do you keep these people from posting huge numbers of tracks to the (approximately) 70 a day that we REAL musician post?

This is a MAJOR potential problem, and we've already had those abusive/deluded personalities drop in on us. They were easy to spot then. If there are hundreds of AI tracks showing up here a day who and how is this going to be monitored? Will you, Ernie, Nick, Martin, Marc, Chris, and all the other creative people stick around? What will be the difference between Wikiloops and Soundcloud if we are not about sharing and adding to tracks as individual real musicians?

Please try to understand that you or anyone else can do whatever you want and post your AI tracks on soundcloud or wherever else. This site is not the same as those. It's been established for real musicians as a special community. It may become anachronistic in some people's view, but frankly that's more than alright with me.

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" This site is not the same as those. It's been established for real musicians as a special community. It may become anachronistic in some people's view, but frankly that's more than alright with me."

Concerning this

1. I don't really understand " Wikiloop os under attack of some kind of AI bots or taggers using AI" - What effect does that have.

2. What is allowed or not allowed here

we should preferrable use audacity,
create HD tracks ( 10 x bigger file size = 10 x better?)
play only natural instruments.
- is it okay to use VST plug ins ( don't know if they work on Audacity
-should the instruments be recorded with mics or can we use amplifier
emulations

-why the exclusions of for the drum.
I don't have the impression this really works well. Here the lovers of the real music seem to have a blind spot on the ears.--> good results I heard on some tracks when toontrack or the logic drummer where used.

-replacing a singer or by an AI "machine" or creating lyrics with AI is an absolute no go

- Are some loopers still real or already AI bots?

- There seem to be people who can hear and distinguish all these fine differences --> the Wikiloops Art police ??


many rules and seems difficult to survey every user.
So the last and final question:

Why not stay with the part that you can control yourself?
Why do you care about all of this. It's up to you, how or in which way
you record your instrument.
Why not just ignore tracks you do not like and if you like 'em.
Why care about the way they have been created?

:|

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I AM SORRY

It was never my intention to start a discussion on banning AI on Wikiloops or to put people using AI on the naughty chair - in particular Dorothy, who I`ve since swapped some mails with and have hopefully made her understand that the problem lies with me and not with her using AI.

And neither have I wanted to "force" Dick to make a decision and come up with a new set of rules.

I know that in my usual roundabout way of writing, the main points sometimes (or often) get buried underneath layers of spontaneous arguments and thoughts.

To avoid any misunderstanding:

AI is here to stay. AI will expand into all walks of life. Neither banning nor embracing AI on Wikiloops or elsewhere will have any effect on the expansion of AI in the world.

Like lots of other things, once it`s there you can`t make it disappear again. It has it`s own development dynamic and that has nothing to do with how beneficial it is. It`s like investment bankers, slow food or wearing white socks and sandals. Totally unneccessary but it exists. Why?Because it can, not because it should.

Which is where my personal issue comes into play which led me to starting this thread. And that has more to do with Wikiloops itself than with AI:

Wikiloops to me has been a revelation as to how people with different backgrounds, levels of skill, different motivation and ambition can jointly create and still be friendly with each other. In other forums as well as in real-life group settings this would quickly turn into a competitive race with all the negatives attached to it.

Plus, there`s a certain amout of unselfishness here. People are prepared to hand over their own ideas to the WL community.

In this sense, WL is very much the opposite of the mindless consumption approach I mentioned in in my initial post. That makes it immersive, personal and emotional to an extent that goes beyond the emotional quality of the music itself. I don`t only interact with the tracks but with the musicians that create them.

And this is my problem with AI on WL. And you may even want to regard this a deficit on my part, but I simply can`t build an emotional relationship (not even for the length of a track) with a machine. My problem, not yours.

The quality of AI output has never been an issue for me and it will even further improve exponentialy over next months and years.

Wikiloops to me has always been about the input. I`m not looking to create the perfect track, maybe only if you understand perfect to mean "capturing a musical emotional expression in a particular moment in time".

On the other hand (does this make for a balanced approach?), there are applications where AI can make sense. Songwriters who want a clearer picture in their heads of what a composition might sound like can profit from AI, likewise people who want to hear their lyrics sung and who can`t sing themselves. Perfectly acceptable and I`d welcome such additions on Wikiloops as ideas and input. But not, not, not, not as tracks just like any other tracks.

So, where does this leave me with Wikiloops?

I don`t want additional rules for AI that Dick has to write (and potentially enforce). My understanding based on the past 2 years here is that Wikiloops works by a common understanding, by unwritten "social laws". (Also, I don`t want to turn my problem into a Wikiloops problem.)

One of those laws is honesty. We don`t take someone elses contribution and sell it under our own name. This should also imply that AI generated input is clearly marked as such.

This in turn would give me two sets of choices:
a) Select or de-select AI generated tracks/adds
b) Allow me to differentiate between a track and the "idea" for a track which could then be recorded by flesh and blood musicians.

If I could offer a suggestion:
Why not use the "experimental remixes" (ER) thread for uploading AI-based tracks/adds?
If you`re adding to a existing template, upload your add to the ER thread and put a comment/link underneath the template to which your add refers.
Likewise for songwriters. If you have ideas for tracks and have used AI to generate a first demo, put it up in the ER thread. I`d love to browse through your ideas and be inspired.

Remember, newcomers to Wikiloops will follow the examples set by existing members. However we deal with AI will determine what Wikiloops looks like and how it will work next year.

Final thought: Maybe we should channel our efforts more towards getting members involved in our tracks? Contact someone directly saying "I have this idea where I want 20 Alphorns playing in harmony and as you`re the resident Alphorn expert could you give it a try?"

Right, that`s me done (for now)

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There are many uploads no one gets to hear because of many people.
What happens when AI starts to dominate the site? I prefer Human generated music.:W

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AI for tools I have no problem with, but AI creating I do not like, I want to interact with people not machines.
This site does what AI does already only far, far better - develop ideas - but here the ideas are developed by a random bunch of real people who have emotionally connected with whatever they chose to add to. This is so far ahead of AI I can't compare them.
Also, I want to be surprised at the various directions an initial upload might take. I can't see AI providing this breadth of reaction.

Drawing on the grid (or near it) I do myself all the time, but I'm drawing ideas from my own head, I feel creative.

Drums - funny one. Very often if I start a track with instrument(s) and drawn vst drum track, I will upload the drum track and instruments separately hoping a drummer will replace the vst drums with proper drumming. What often happens is my mix gets ignored but people build all kinds of tracks on the vst drums. lol What can you do?

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