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Sequenced/Live drums

posted on #1
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Hi Dick,

This is a product of a discussion in the shoutbox between myself, RP3Drums and Kimbo so I said I'd drop a thread about it.

The ambiguity of the 'Sequencer' instrument has been brought up before but essentially would it be possible to have two identifying upload categories for drums to differentiate between programmed and 'played live' drums?

I'm guessing this could complicate the search when filtering by instrument as both should count as drums for the purposes of the search, would it be possible to have two upload categories? For example:

- Drums (played) (these could be acoustic or electronic as log as its performed by the artist)
- Drums (programmed)/ Drums (sequenced) (anything sequenced or made of loops)

Something like that. What is your opinion on this. This came about because of the difficulty some have with telling apart programmed drums and drums played by the uploader.
posted on #2
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Hm, different section for software drums and live drums would be a good idea. I always leave details in description/tags, but some don't notice it seems
posted on #3
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I think this is a great idea. I think it is important in this day and age to differentiate the two. It really is two different instruments, so to speak.
rp3 (Raymond)
posted on #4
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Or perhaps even a checkbox under the drums upload that says 'I played this' or 'these are sequenced drums' and just have a different icon?
posted on #5
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good point & definetly worth considering.
adding instruments to the system is not all easy and involves quite a lot of tricky bits,
so don't expect this anytime soon, but it will appear at some point.
posted on #6
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In that case - there'd be another usage for 'handmade instrument' and 'electronic instrument' . Actually, software guitars should be defined as 'keys' , same as software drums, bass, etc. But it's weird, to search for 'keys' and get some drumming results :D
A different icon for such electronic instruments would be cool, but not necessary. I have a couple software jams, but i always need to explain myself in comments, descriptions, that it's not played live. And we have a lot of software-based influence. Not only keys
posted on #7
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I get your points but for me as a non drummer i just want something that bangs in an interesting way. To search several categories would complicate things i believe
Pure fingerstyle
posted on #8
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I bet there is no way back to the good old times. In some years a robot will hit with his silicon coated hands on an old fashioned acoustic drumset and maybe he/she/it will be a member of wikiloops... On the other hand native born humans will jam through a device that will them make sound like a studio musician with automatic timing corrections...
And the robot will use this software, too.
Would be nice to develop a software that can judge an existent drum trackif it is "human". Bass are hard to tell, too.
Edited by Neronick on April 21 2016 16:04
posted on #9
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Neronick wrote: Bass are hard to tell, too.

posted on #10
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...how about...and this is only an idea...just flinging out there.... how about a bass player plays bass... drummer plays drums... and a guitarist plays guitar? and we put a bomb under a lll the pianists who wannna play bass!
posted on #11
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DannyK wrote:
Neronick wrote: Bass are hard to tell, too.


I could die of heart attack :( What if i transform myself in a bit of silicon (if you can't beat them, join on...)?
posted on #12
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...sorry .... rant night...
i think anyone who plays, and has spent any time at all trying to learn their chosen instrument, gets pissed off when some prick with a computer comes along and tries to tell you how he can do what its taken you years to master on the real handful of dynamics and strings and skins etc.
the really clever guys at this are the ones who play their own sounds really well. they have their own chops and nuances...dont need to try to imitate other instruments.... ok rant over..... cooling off now.... honest
ps i really am i "nice" person:)
posted on #13
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VSTi's are just tools that make music ideas sound more real ... allthough many of them will cost you a kidney and a right leg i don't think any of them will ever replace a live musician ;)

of course smart producers can use them to achieve some cool sounding track the cheap way (compared to what it takes for a human line up) but hey its all about music right ? it really TAKES some musicality skills to make that sound good !

and does it mean we should track that kind of use down on wikiloops and label those tracks as something special ? i don't know actually ... and what if the guy sticks to I played this ? should we set up some kind of wiki polizei ?? mmm
Edited by OliVBee on April 22 2016 10:58
clusters Clusters CLUSTERS !!!!!!
posted on #14
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You're right, Oli. It's a tough area. I've given it some thought and I think a good way forward would be to just upload drums as normal but have three radio buttons (or a drop-down list) for: 'live acoustic drums', 'live e-drums' and 'computer drums'. That way there's no differentiation in terms of the search, etc. as it's still just 'drums'. Well I say 'just', technically I'm sure it's a lot more challenging!

All the choice does is affect what icon is shown in the mix tree. I don't think many would try and pass off programmed/loop drums as them playing, etc.. They'd get rumbled for starters!
Edited by mpointon on April 22 2016 11:17
posted on #15
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Ich stimme Oliv da voll zu! Ich verachte dadurch doch nicht die Musik oder die Musiker, die ihr Instrument spielen können.
Ich sehe es als Ergänzung und für Leute wie mich, die damit kreativ sein können, als klasse Werkzeug an, um die Kreativität umsetzen zu können.
Auch das einsetzen von Vsti, Midi oder Samples bedarf ein Mindestmaß an Musikkenntnissen und braucht eine gewisse Anstrengung, damit das gewünschte Ergebniss erziehlt wird.

Nichts desto trotz, bewundere ich alle Musiker, die, egal welche Mittel sie benutzt haben mich mit ihrer Musik begeistern.

Über Geschmack lässt sich bekanntlich nicht streiten!

Love and Peace

Google translation:
I agree Olive as fully! I despise characterized but not the music or the musicians who can play their instrument.
I regard it as a supplement and for people like me, who can thus be creative, as class tool to implement the creativity can.
Also the use of Vsti, Midi or samples requires a minimum level of musical knowledge and needs a certain amount of effort to achieve the desired result is conceded.

Nevertheless, I admire all musicians, no matter what means they used inspire me with their music.

Taste can not argue known!

Love and Peace
Rockin´ in a free world !
posted on #16
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don't get me wrong...i realise its as much a part of music as any other instrument...but i hate it when people pass it off as something its not...
like lip syncing.
went to see a fave band recently and the engineer resorted to switching off the pa feeds from all back line amps except the vocals...for the first act...then great sound for the headliners... but a ska band with no bass player....really? keys supplied some fakery an then the trumpet player was dancing and waving his trumpet about whilst supposedly playing a solo.
amazingly no one seemed to notice this, but for me the evening was ruined. once they'd been caught in one lie....what else?was the who;e thing band in a box?

and yes i sometimes have to ask? is that for real?... think thats what started this debate.....sorry:@
posted on #17
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Got to admit that I cringe when I hear some of the primitive keyboard "sax" synth tracks that we have around here (some are very good though). For anyone searching saxophone the first thing you come up with is a synth sax (identified as a sax). It sounds like an overgrown electronic harmonica. Not a good introduction to wikiloops sax players. I grizzled about this years ago... to no avail. There are two issue here. Authenticity, and unfortunately quality. I've also grizzled to individuals who have posted work that is ruined by their thinking they needed to use some canned drum track so that there was rhythm for them to follow. There are other ways to do this rather than ruin what might have been a good track.

I don't care if a drum is acoustic or an electronic kit, but think it's not quite right to programme a synth drum and have it appear as played by a REAL drummer. I'm not saying that the effort isn't there, or the sound isn't good, but it's certainly not the same thing. I'd prefer to see a complete category for all instruments listed which allows them to be identified as played in real time or synth. That leaves no doubt and if someone IDs their track incorrectly it can be changed.

I don't know how much work this would make for Richard, and I don't pretend to know what's involved although it seems like a complete divide that applies to all instruments and doubles the number. As others have indicated it applies to almost every instrument.
posted on #18
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As always: "What Wade said!". I agree with him in every comment and post.
Using Midibackings is something to avoid. I never uploaded a Miditrack as a stand-alone. Always part of a file called sequenzer, which includes "keys" and "mouse-music".

The real problem is to use downloaded drum-files on the harddrive because there is no easy way to identify the right one to work on a composition, e.g. tempo, pulse, arrangement.
If you find a real drumtrack that fits very good there might exist the phanomene that the used mp3-quality is too poor, e.g. less then 256kBit.
Usally there is a big time-lag between download and usage.

Last but not least, if you work with midisounds you get used to poor sounds. Put the blame on me, too. :)

(But at some degree, midi-composertools are very, very useful!)
posted on #19
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I worked solidly with VST and Loops and my vocals for 10 years (except on some collaborations). I don't know anything else. I don't play an instrument.. the computer and Garageband was my instrument. I also collaborated a lot in the last 10 years and each time I got a file send or I heard a file that appealed to me.. I never cared if it was a live instrument or not.. it foremost had to appeal to me.

As a non-drummer, drums in a song, to me, just have to 'kick ass'.... There are some very talented persons out there that can play e-drums brilliantly.. at home but also on stage... live.....

Times change.... I hope I will always stay open minded to keep following the change and work with it... experiment... etc.

And back at topic... Why does it have to be divided? I can imagine musicians with a lot of experience will hear if it's a real live drum or not.. and when in doubt can't you ask? Or check the profile to see what the artist has written in biography?

I feel there's already so many buttons on the search page that I think I already miss out on great tracks .. it's like a needle in a hay stag if you catch my drift....

Then again.. whatever works for the majority of the community.. I'm with it...

my 2cents..
Edited by Moor on April 25 2016 09:30
"You'll Stumble In My Footsteps" - Depeche Mode
"I always listen to what people are not saying"
posted on #20
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..a bit off subject i know ...but anyone wanna hear a "real" drummer goin for it.... found this , courtesy of olivbee's tube channel..
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