HONEST OPINIONS
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: Aug 31, 2011
have we gotten to the point that honest opinion and constructive criticism are totally frowned upon?
are we no longer emotionally strong enough yo listen to both the postive and negative opinions and critique of others?
remembering the difference between honest constructive criticism and intentional condemnation.... a musician, as well as any other artist or person in general should be emotionally sound and strong enough to bear opinion knowing quite well that everyone is entitled to one whether factually correct or not.
it is up to every individual to make themselves knowledgable ,clearly understood,honest,and considerate as well as kind with only the intention of improving
something better .
I think every striving artist needs to know the facts, the Truth and to be Able to Decipher Constructive Criticism and Opinion from REAL NASTINESS...... AMEN
PS WHAT ARE THE CHOICES ARE WE LEFT WITH?
Calling Bad Good???
are we no longer emotionally strong enough yo listen to both the postive and negative opinions and critique of others?
remembering the difference between honest constructive criticism and intentional condemnation.... a musician, as well as any other artist or person in general should be emotionally sound and strong enough to bear opinion knowing quite well that everyone is entitled to one whether factually correct or not.
it is up to every individual to make themselves knowledgable ,clearly understood,honest,and considerate as well as kind with only the intention of improving
something better .
I think every striving artist needs to know the facts, the Truth and to be Able to Decipher Constructive Criticism and Opinion from REAL NASTINESS...... AMEN
PS WHAT ARE THE CHOICES ARE WE LEFT WITH?
Calling Bad Good???
+3
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: Sep 24, 2017
I agree with you :)
My opinion is that if someone spents his precious time for listening to a track of mine then he has all reasons to leave a honest feedback.
WL is a very polished community and practically nobody writes negative feedback.
On the other side, it is not easy to calibrate a negative but constructive feedback because who plays and who listens to could have different expectations.
Cheers :)
My opinion is that if someone spents his precious time for listening to a track of mine then he has all reasons to leave a honest feedback.
WL is a very polished community and practically nobody writes negative feedback.
On the other side, it is not easy to calibrate a negative but constructive feedback because who plays and who listens to could have different expectations.
Cheers :)
+3
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Hmmm.
What made you feel writing that post was due? I'm somehow missing that key information in your post, @Frank, no offense meant, just wondering.
I absolutely agree it is a crucial skill to distinguish a well-intended yet critical feedback from being bashed.
I'd think it would be a shame if there was a trend towards playing the bashing-victim whenever someone dares to say anything, which indicates someone discovered there might be slight headroom for improvement to my otherwise god-like state. If you live up on that cloud, then I'd agree with Frank, there is something wrong about that reaction. Is it trending? I cannot really tell.
I do not believe in a feedback-free society, nor in feedback-free education.
Both solving conflicts or reaching compromises and learning require openness towards feedback, and the ability to give and take it.
However, we must note that wikiloops neither puts its users in a "student" position, nor is it the platforms aim to cater to "striving musicians" only.
Please consider:
I might be a seasoned musician with more studio time under my belt than some are old, who uploads some three-minute-take recorded from my phone just for the sheer enjoyment. Am I in need of feedback on the crappy sound of my phone, or the fact that a week of preparation would have made a better take? No, I absolutely know that.
Is that type of feedback what I hope to get from wikiloops?
No, I'm sharing my little fun time with the world, and only because wikiloops displays a "comments" box, that does not say:
"Please, I want some experienced peoples critical feedback so I can improve my recording abilities and learn something musical".
If that is what you want, I'd recommend stating that desire in your uploads description.
If you spot someone asking for that type of feedback, go ahead and give it, the recipient will value it, if then there is something constructive in it.
Do not get me wrong, I have seen comments as well which I also felt are somewhere between shallow and sweet-toothing, sometimes to an extend where I could not follow what is the real intention of the interaction.
You are not obliged to join that.
I do however feel it is everyone's good right to reject un-asked-for feedback on their private fun.
I recently read an interesting article by some business coach who advocated rejecting feedback even in a professional context, for the simple reason that the ratio of feedback which really empowers the recipient to grow
versus feedback that does nothing more than giving the sender a well-labelled chance to voice some destructive criticism wrapped as "feedback" and leaves the recipient less motivated
is not really trending for the first experience.
I'm afraid I'd have to agree on that.
And that's talking about face-to-face feedback.
The anonymity of the web and the multitude of languages washed by auto translation does not improve that situation either.
I do ask for feedback, even online, you know I do.
I can deal with what I get in return, tho it is not always easy emotionally, and some stuff labelled as "feedback" is not constructive at all.
When looking at feedback between musicians on wikiloops, well, yes, that may look quite "polished" as magirtiko put it.
Maybe that is a signal that the majority of people around here is not in the "striving artist seeking experienced feedback" boat.
I do not feel that would be a bad thing.
If you prefer being taken apart by a bunch of self-entitled experts online (mind, you'll have to weed out the trolls there yourself, then), I think you might find better places that have this type of culture going, and do not read that as "go away", that is not what I am saying here.
I could write a book on well intended feedback gone wrong. I guess it comes down to fully understanding that only the recipient of any feedback can judge whether that feedback was useful or desired, and - in my humble opinion - it is a mistake to think a person was lacking the ability to take feedback, just because he or she states that some feedback was not wanted, or not helpful.
Tell the guy who's broke he really needs that $1k pre-amp, or the guitar player who lost part of a finger that her left hand technique should be worked on... it can go wrong really bad, no matter how good the intention, and how objectively correct the advice is.
Good feedback is difficult :)
What made you feel writing that post was due? I'm somehow missing that key information in your post, @Frank, no offense meant, just wondering.
I absolutely agree it is a crucial skill to distinguish a well-intended yet critical feedback from being bashed.
I'd think it would be a shame if there was a trend towards playing the bashing-victim whenever someone dares to say anything, which indicates someone discovered there might be slight headroom for improvement to my otherwise god-like state. If you live up on that cloud, then I'd agree with Frank, there is something wrong about that reaction. Is it trending? I cannot really tell.
I do not believe in a feedback-free society, nor in feedback-free education.
Both solving conflicts or reaching compromises and learning require openness towards feedback, and the ability to give and take it.
However, we must note that wikiloops neither puts its users in a "student" position, nor is it the platforms aim to cater to "striving musicians" only.
Please consider:
I might be a seasoned musician with more studio time under my belt than some are old, who uploads some three-minute-take recorded from my phone just for the sheer enjoyment. Am I in need of feedback on the crappy sound of my phone, or the fact that a week of preparation would have made a better take? No, I absolutely know that.
Is that type of feedback what I hope to get from wikiloops?
No, I'm sharing my little fun time with the world, and only because wikiloops displays a "comments" box, that does not say:
"Please, I want some experienced peoples critical feedback so I can improve my recording abilities and learn something musical".
If that is what you want, I'd recommend stating that desire in your uploads description.
If you spot someone asking for that type of feedback, go ahead and give it, the recipient will value it, if then there is something constructive in it.
Do not get me wrong, I have seen comments as well which I also felt are somewhere between shallow and sweet-toothing, sometimes to an extend where I could not follow what is the real intention of the interaction.
You are not obliged to join that.
I do however feel it is everyone's good right to reject un-asked-for feedback on their private fun.
I recently read an interesting article by some business coach who advocated rejecting feedback even in a professional context, for the simple reason that the ratio of feedback which really empowers the recipient to grow
versus feedback that does nothing more than giving the sender a well-labelled chance to voice some destructive criticism wrapped as "feedback" and leaves the recipient less motivated
is not really trending for the first experience.
I'm afraid I'd have to agree on that.
And that's talking about face-to-face feedback.
The anonymity of the web and the multitude of languages washed by auto translation does not improve that situation either.
I do ask for feedback, even online, you know I do.
I can deal with what I get in return, tho it is not always easy emotionally, and some stuff labelled as "feedback" is not constructive at all.
When looking at feedback between musicians on wikiloops, well, yes, that may look quite "polished" as magirtiko put it.
Maybe that is a signal that the majority of people around here is not in the "striving artist seeking experienced feedback" boat.
I do not feel that would be a bad thing.
If you prefer being taken apart by a bunch of self-entitled experts online (mind, you'll have to weed out the trolls there yourself, then), I think you might find better places that have this type of culture going, and do not read that as "go away", that is not what I am saying here.
I could write a book on well intended feedback gone wrong. I guess it comes down to fully understanding that only the recipient of any feedback can judge whether that feedback was useful or desired, and - in my humble opinion - it is a mistake to think a person was lacking the ability to take feedback, just because he or she states that some feedback was not wanted, or not helpful.
Tell the guy who's broke he really needs that $1k pre-amp, or the guitar player who lost part of a finger that her left hand technique should be worked on... it can go wrong really bad, no matter how good the intention, and how objectively correct the advice is.
Good feedback is difficult :)
+20
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My experience with feedback on WL has generally been very useful. When I started last year my mixing skills were poor (and can still be improved a lot),and the sound I made was sometimes 'muddy' Wades's term. Wade was responsible for this initial feedback and I hope my contributions have improved. Bradford made me aware that more reverb can greatly improve a track and I am grateful to him. Another sort of feedback can be seen in the number of thumb and listeners for a particular post although this is harder to interpret. I appreciate it when someone has gone to the bother of commenting on a track - obviously positive comments are more appreciated but just the effort someone has gone to in saying something is rewarding. Of course I probably would not have that view if the comment was wholly negative and insulting, luckily that hasn't happened yet:D.
+7
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Posts: 32
Joined: Aug 31, 2011
Thanks to all who replied and added to the conversation.;)
“Every Now And Then”
I have a need to say something
Sometimes It doesnt mean
A Hill of Beans
But Ive gotta let it out
Just to see who it touches……
How You Respond inspires my next song.
I agree with what everyone expressed in response to my post on “ Honest Opinions”.
To Clarify My Intention,
As a Player of Music for over 50 years, i have personally learned thru lots of trial and error the need to understand the Mental and Especially the Emotional Mindset of Myself and Playing Skills and also to be Sensitive to the Mindset and Playing Skills of Others.
I believe this is a very important lesson for all of us to learn and practice here in Wikiloops and the World as a Whole.
I know that Most Everyone Knows these things as Common Sense .
My post was presented not from any any specific event , but more to hopefully reach those who may not know or to just reinforce and maybe improve that mindset.
Making Music requires numerous componets of Desire, Motivation, Inspiration.,Cooperation, Purpose,Value with Fun and Joy as The Reward.
Ive been with Wikiloops since 2011 and didnt have a handle on uploads and remixes and yes everyone here at Wikiloops have been very helpful in “keeping me on track”.
I Very Much Thank Dick and all the Supporters of this Fine Format to Express.
Maybe Music doesn’ need feedback
You put it out there
You hope someone hears it.
If it sounds good to you
You only hope it sounds good to who else listens.
“A Word To The Wise Is Sufficent”
“Every Now And Then”
I have a need to say something
Sometimes It doesnt mean
A Hill of Beans
But Ive gotta let it out
Just to see who it touches……
How You Respond inspires my next song.
I agree with what everyone expressed in response to my post on “ Honest Opinions”.
To Clarify My Intention,
As a Player of Music for over 50 years, i have personally learned thru lots of trial and error the need to understand the Mental and Especially the Emotional Mindset of Myself and Playing Skills and also to be Sensitive to the Mindset and Playing Skills of Others.
I believe this is a very important lesson for all of us to learn and practice here in Wikiloops and the World as a Whole.
I know that Most Everyone Knows these things as Common Sense .
My post was presented not from any any specific event , but more to hopefully reach those who may not know or to just reinforce and maybe improve that mindset.
Making Music requires numerous componets of Desire, Motivation, Inspiration.,Cooperation, Purpose,Value with Fun and Joy as The Reward.
Ive been with Wikiloops since 2011 and didnt have a handle on uploads and remixes and yes everyone here at Wikiloops have been very helpful in “keeping me on track”.
I Very Much Thank Dick and all the Supporters of this Fine Format to Express.
Maybe Music doesn’ need feedback
You put it out there
You hope someone hears it.
If it sounds good to you
You only hope it sounds good to who else listens.
“A Word To The Wise Is Sufficent”
+8
Member
Posts: 204
Joined: Nov 16, 2019
Idea: Anonymous feedback option for those desiring 'grad student' style critical analysis. Why would you want this? Perhaps you're contemplating releasing collections on bandcamp and want a very specific critique. How? A flag on a template that reads 'Anon feedback welcome.' is turned on by the user at upload time. And a special text blurb is entered like ' Please compare multiband to similiar commercial releases.',for example.
+3
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As a person who gives feedback that is sometimes intended as a helpful critique, I've been stung by one member who stomped off blaming me for his leaving while throwing piles of vitriol in every direction. I'm not sorry for trying to help that individual, just not always comfortable with giving helpful information when it's unknown if it's wanted/accepted.
The suggestion of anonymity is good, but requires Richard to build that into the system. I doubt that he will do that. It's "spelled out" in his box for remarks that says "post COMPLIMENT". It's hard to deny that this site works well compared to those that have vicious little trolls ready to share their misery with all.
Private messages can work OK, but often when discussing a musical topic that could benefit many it's not a bad idea to make it more public. Balancing this can be difficult and it's far easier and safer to just ignore tracks that one doesn't like or thinks making a little tweak might make it better.
We all have egos, and it takes a slightly, or very much larger ego than average, to think we have the ability to make music that is worthy of other's ears. Those egos range from tough to fragile.....gently handled eggs makes for fewer accidents. A yummy omelet always requires breaking and beating those eggs well. What should we be cooking up?
Probably it comes down to the individual to answer that, as we all have different reasons for being here. As it is many of us are here to mix with other musicians musically. Some however are here to practice and learn. If those people identify themselves and that they want/need critical comments, then that could alleviate the need to be guessing.
Maybe a forum post could be initiated for those people who would like critical comments to identify themselves and what they want/need in terms of critical comments? Classes of comments/questions could include/exclude for those individuals:
1. Feedback as a PM or posted on their track
2. Areas where critical comments are welcome...or not ...which could include tone, timing, mix/volume, composition, technical aspects, etc.
3. Questions of intent, e.g. what the person posting was trying to sound like or communicate.
4. Did the add enhance, detract, was it necessary or a matter of wanting to be part of the track.
5. etc.
The suggestion of anonymity is good, but requires Richard to build that into the system. I doubt that he will do that. It's "spelled out" in his box for remarks that says "post COMPLIMENT". It's hard to deny that this site works well compared to those that have vicious little trolls ready to share their misery with all.
Private messages can work OK, but often when discussing a musical topic that could benefit many it's not a bad idea to make it more public. Balancing this can be difficult and it's far easier and safer to just ignore tracks that one doesn't like or thinks making a little tweak might make it better.
We all have egos, and it takes a slightly, or very much larger ego than average, to think we have the ability to make music that is worthy of other's ears. Those egos range from tough to fragile.....gently handled eggs makes for fewer accidents. A yummy omelet always requires breaking and beating those eggs well. What should we be cooking up?
Probably it comes down to the individual to answer that, as we all have different reasons for being here. As it is many of us are here to mix with other musicians musically. Some however are here to practice and learn. If those people identify themselves and that they want/need critical comments, then that could alleviate the need to be guessing.
Maybe a forum post could be initiated for those people who would like critical comments to identify themselves and what they want/need in terms of critical comments? Classes of comments/questions could include/exclude for those individuals:
1. Feedback as a PM or posted on their track
2. Areas where critical comments are welcome...or not ...which could include tone, timing, mix/volume, composition, technical aspects, etc.
3. Questions of intent, e.g. what the person posting was trying to sound like or communicate.
4. Did the add enhance, detract, was it necessary or a matter of wanting to be part of the track.
5. etc.
+8
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I like the suggestions Wade has made, though I`m not sure about keeping feedback anonymous.
Personally, I always appreciate feedback that helps me improve, lets me learn and in general I find it easier to accept and understand if I know where it`s coming from.
Dick will need to put his thinking hat on to determine what would be feasible and reasonable but I like the idea of using the forum approach, least of all because it has the semblance of discussion and interaction.
Personally, I always appreciate feedback that helps me improve, lets me learn and in general I find it easier to accept and understand if I know where it`s coming from.
Dick will need to put his thinking hat on to determine what would be feasible and reasonable but I like the idea of using the forum approach, least of all because it has the semblance of discussion and interaction.
+4
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I don't want to answer for Dick here, but I think he has stated his opinions already with "(giving) good feedback is difficult".
I had to think about it this morning when I took this photograph:
[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52883200659_6f9a773ba1_c_d.jpg[/img]
Now imagine that you're that snail. Or that the snail asked for opinions - and although you might think that you know so much more than it, my photo reminded me of this Blues song:
[youtube]gUm_VC3vBt4[/youtube]
Giving good feedback is difficult indeed, even if people ask for it... that said, I've learnt a lot here through helpful people like Wade, OliVBee, and others, and newbies are always encouraged to ask for anything they'd like. We're *not* anonymous, and that is an asset in my opinion, because what we have here is indeed some kind of friendly and helpful discussion culture.
My 2 (Euro-) Cents...
I had to think about it this morning when I took this photograph:
[img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52883200659_6f9a773ba1_c_d.jpg[/img]
Now imagine that you're that snail. Or that the snail asked for opinions - and although you might think that you know so much more than it, my photo reminded me of this Blues song:
[youtube]gUm_VC3vBt4[/youtube]
Giving good feedback is difficult indeed, even if people ask for it... that said, I've learnt a lot here through helpful people like Wade, OliVBee, and others, and newbies are always encouraged to ask for anything they'd like. We're *not* anonymous, and that is an asset in my opinion, because what we have here is indeed some kind of friendly and helpful discussion culture.
My 2 (Euro-) Cents...
+6
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Joined: Sep 27, 2014
Once in a while this topic comes up, no doubt this is something that is on many people's mind...
As a user, I welcome critique and advice, but the fact is, the world has changed and people are not willing to hear it. I accept this situation, it's OK.
As a moderator on this site, I suppose I can give a bit more advice without getting my head chewed off, however I mainly go for general tips such as volume and maybe mix levels etc, mostly to new users. I suppose I am not good enough as a musician anyway to give opinions on melodies and improvisations and music theory.
What I don't do is listening to a track that is really sloppy and bad and going woohoo yeah wow this is the best!!! if you know what I mean. At the end of the day, we are here for fun - 99% of users are amateurs and bedroom guitar heroes (like me :) ) and we are just happy to have a nice place where we can make music in a nice environment.
So the comments on our songs will be mostly positive, and that will stay like that. No need to fix something that is not broken... Dick had a vision for this place, and I am fully behind it. I love coming to Wikiloops every day, and not having to deal with flaming, fighting and dramas. It's good, people.
So what do we do if we want to get better, and would like to have more detailed feedback? This is what anyone can do:
First option: You could write in the description of the text something like "Hey guys, this is my new guitar track, I tried to add some special effects and recorded it with the microphone strapped to my dog running around in circles after a squirrel. What do you think, does it sound good? Is it too loud? Please give me your opinion, don't worry about hurting my (or the dog's) feelings. Give it to me straight please"
Second option: This is a social site, the more you interact with other people the more comments you get. You will make friends here, and after a while you will know who knows what he is doing and who does not - especially as you will be listening to his/hers tracks. And pay attention to what they say, read between the lines. And if you have a good relation going with someone, you could PM and ask them for their opinion.
So, that's it now goo back to making music. Peace :W
As a user, I welcome critique and advice, but the fact is, the world has changed and people are not willing to hear it. I accept this situation, it's OK.
As a moderator on this site, I suppose I can give a bit more advice without getting my head chewed off, however I mainly go for general tips such as volume and maybe mix levels etc, mostly to new users. I suppose I am not good enough as a musician anyway to give opinions on melodies and improvisations and music theory.
What I don't do is listening to a track that is really sloppy and bad and going woohoo yeah wow this is the best!!! if you know what I mean. At the end of the day, we are here for fun - 99% of users are amateurs and bedroom guitar heroes (like me :) ) and we are just happy to have a nice place where we can make music in a nice environment.
So the comments on our songs will be mostly positive, and that will stay like that. No need to fix something that is not broken... Dick had a vision for this place, and I am fully behind it. I love coming to Wikiloops every day, and not having to deal with flaming, fighting and dramas. It's good, people.
So what do we do if we want to get better, and would like to have more detailed feedback? This is what anyone can do:
First option: You could write in the description of the text something like "Hey guys, this is my new guitar track, I tried to add some special effects and recorded it with the microphone strapped to my dog running around in circles after a squirrel. What do you think, does it sound good? Is it too loud? Please give me your opinion, don't worry about hurting my (or the dog's) feelings. Give it to me straight please"
Second option: This is a social site, the more you interact with other people the more comments you get. You will make friends here, and after a while you will know who knows what he is doing and who does not - especially as you will be listening to his/hers tracks. And pay attention to what they say, read between the lines. And if you have a good relation going with someone, you could PM and ask them for their opinion.
So, that's it now goo back to making music. Peace :W
+12
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That is an AWESOME photo, Wolf!
+2
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Lets keep WLthe fun, encouraging and friendly place as it is.
+7
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All publications are offered to the benevolence of the listeners. A comment is already a proof of having given an emotion. An advice is welcome when it helps a collaboration. For example, it is more difficult to participate in a jam played without a metronome. This could be said in a private message without it becoming an issue. There are so many great things to discover here that we just have to validate the one that speaks to us.
+8
Member
Posts: 49
Joined: Jan 7, 2019
I was taught from an early age that if you cannot say something positive it is best just to not say anything at all. I witnessed this a lot in college classes. The professor would always find a way to put a positive spin on every critique no matter how poorly the project was executed. Sometimes the work was downright horrible in my opinion, but the professor would always find something positive to point out while ignoring the negative. (That was very difficult for me.) I think a lot of what we see today at least here in the USA is a direct result of "participation trophy" approach that has found it's way into the entire population and is most prevalent in the public education system.
+3
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Joined: Mar 19, 2022
I think mray nailed it when he used the term 'advice' in his post. Advice in the sense 'here's what you might like to try and it will change your track in this way...' is helpful and may help me improve. But 'advice' is different from 'judging'.
But without exception all comments and pm's I've received have helped me to at least get a better understanding of what I need to work on...which is a lot. But that is one of the reasons why Wikiloops is so great.
But without exception all comments and pm's I've received have helped me to at least get a better understanding of what I need to work on...which is a lot. But that is one of the reasons why Wikiloops is so great.
+2
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Posts: 28
Joined: Jun 6, 2020
First of all, I'd like to thank Dick for having created this wonderful platform, that gives so many opportunities to all musicians.
As for the topic, I'm aware of dangers coming from "honest" opinions, especially if given in a non-verbal communication that leaves more room for misunderstandings. At the same time, I consider essential to have (and be able to express) a "real" feedback and constructive criticism.
For myself, I think I'll take Dick's suggestion to explicitly ask for such opinions (publicly or via private message) when I upload a track :)
As for the topic, I'm aware of dangers coming from "honest" opinions, especially if given in a non-verbal communication that leaves more room for misunderstandings. At the same time, I consider essential to have (and be able to express) a "real" feedback and constructive criticism.
For myself, I think I'll take Dick's suggestion to explicitly ask for such opinions (publicly or via private message) when I upload a track :)
+3
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