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Room for newbies?

Room for newbies?

posted on #1
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 207
Joined: Mar 19, 2022
seriouss recently wrote in another thread: “What i miss at wikiloops is a bit more room for the newcomers. People always seem to stay with what they already know. After a warm welcome newbies are normally ignored.”

As this resonated/contrasted with some thoughts I had after the Barnadise meeting, I thought I`d comment as even after 2 years on Wikiloops I still regard myself as a newcomer.

When you look at Wikiloops the two most prominent buzzwords are “Jamming” and “Backing tracks” and I suppose most members were attracted by one or the other.

Personally I was only searching for backing tracks to learn and practice bass guitar. I had no intention of jamming or uploading anything. To be honest, in the beginning I didn`t pay too much attention to the tracks that were uploaded, sometimes only listening to bass parts to try to learn something new and to broaden my horizons.

What I did do was to read comments on tracks to understand how Wikiloops worked. Not in a technical or functional sense but in the sense of user behaviour and group dynamics. Maybe I was just lucky to come across some comments that made me think that some outside comments and advice might help me in my development, especially as I was moving beyond just learning bass and re-discovering keys and musical creativity (which to me is totally different to learning to play an instrument. It`s a different journey with a different mindset).

So I just went for it, fully aware that my first couple of uploads (in fact 95% of all my uploads) were and mostly still are of sub-standard. As someone who stopped playing in bands and performing solo more than 30 years ago, everything I do musically is one big chaotic construction site.

Learning to record and working the DAW – 30 years ago I had an engineer do that for me,
Playing bass – don`t yet have the real feeling for the thing, but ask me again in 10 years time,
Keys – hell, midi was just an underground topic in the 80s and don`t even get me started on synths. The stuff available today would have seemed like something from outer space 30 years ago.

The thing is that starting on Wikiloops despite all these deficits, the members have given me the room to slowly progress to a point where my personal cringe level is noticeably reducing and I`m getting even more and better constructive feedback.

And I think that that`s down to three factors.

One, well-meaning and helpful comments and messages either about the playing itself, the recording, the sound…. And I got that right from day one.

Two, the high level of tolerance on Wikiloops. I confess to having this weird inability to really listen critically to my output until I`ve uploaded it. So I`m basically misusing Wikiloops as my personal sounding board – hence the apologies I often add in my comments. (Luckily there`s a learning curve and I am learning to listen for “mistakes” prior to uploading.)

The third factor is something I began to suspect a couple of months ago and which I think I found confirmed at the Barnadise meeting and that is the personal level of interaction, which might sound funny considering this is an online platform. But I think the charm (and the challenge) of Wikiloops really comes into play when you not only add to a track because you like it but when you also consider who else is performing on it and you try to acknowledge and fit into their styles (either by buying in or by consciously creating a contrast and surprising everyone). I really believe that many people take notice when they feel that the uploader has tried to understand and become involved with the intention of the template rather than just piling up the adds. (That`s a real lesson-learned from the master of plastering his keys across every available audio space!!!!).

So, room for newbies? I don`t think there`s a limit to what you can do on Wikiloops, regardless of newbie/old hand status or of what you want to achieve for yourself. But as with every community it takes time to get to know people (at least their Wikiloops personas) and to develop musical relationships.

They only things that really do NOT seem to work on Wikiloops are
- inflating your ego by trying to get as many thumps-ups as possible,
- being unkind to the folks manning the trolley,
- proposing marriage to Shi
- composing long, rambling texts

(I`ll crawl back into my hole now)
+8
posted on #2
seriouss
Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Aug 24, 2014
thx for the reply "mySounds", well i am not exactly new here, more like a member since 2014.
As for thumbs and all this stuff, this already less competitive, then it used to be. Some years it was like that not aonly the thumbs for a track appeared in the tracks, but also a total number of thumbs of each musicians in a post. I think this was changed by Dick when he updated wikiloops some years ago.
So thats a generation between that and today...But, fior me it's still "tehm" when I think about wikiloops. I don't know where the poeple catch this warm feeling....but still I believe it's nice people. Probably "they" know some evil secrets about me that even I don't know.
But I am not interested at all in thumbs, i also don't befriend some of the members or beg for anything, but still I think this is a public meeting place and even the people or better some people don't like me, I can be a member ...I mean if you want somebody to as favourite enemy then I am just okay as I "...can't harm a fly". You are also a really nice guy MySounds, I really enjoyed your last add....but just irgnore me, I more or less just want to listen .......no trouble, just love , respect !!!!:D:D<3
+1
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posted on #3
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 207
Joined: Mar 19, 2022
I know you are one of the oldtimers here. I just used your comment as a vehicle to voice some of the discussions we had at the Barnadise and my own thoughts on that. :D
posted on #4
Bradford Supporter
Posts: 73
Joined: Aug 23, 2021
Great topic that resonates with the heart and soul of WL.

The only way I found to list new members is SEARCH / MEMBERS / ORDERED BY/SHOW NEW MEMBERS but it doesn't really help much because so many results haven't yet contributed.

Perhaps adding a new dropdown selection that only shows new members that have actually shared tracks would help. In addition, sorting by share date would also be helpful.

On the other hand, maybe there's already a way to find new member's material and if so, please enlighten me.

Thanks,
Brad
+2
posted on #5
rootshell Supporter
Posts: 335
Joined: Jul 4, 2020
seriouss wrote:
thx for the reply "mySounds", well i am not exactly new here, more like a member since 2014.
As for thumbs and all this stuff, this already less competitive, then it used to be. Some years it was like that not aonly the thumbs for a track appeared in the tracks, but also a total number of thumbs of each musicians in a post. I think this was changed by Dick when he updated wikiloops some years ago.
So thats a generation between that and today...But, fior me it's still "tehm" when I think about wikiloops. I don't know where the poeple catch this warm feeling....but still I believe it's nice people. Probably "they" know some evil secrets about me that even I don't know.
But I am not interested at all in thumbs, i also don't befriend some of the members or beg for anything, but still I think this is a public meeting place and even the people or better some people don't like me, I can be a member ...I mean if you want somebody to as favourite enemy then I am just okay as I "...can't harm a fly". You are also a really nice guy MySounds, I really enjoyed your last add....but just irgnore me, I more or less just want to listen .......no trouble, just love , respect !!!!:D:D<3


i agree with there needs to be more opportunity for new members and their contributions to be recognized. not sure what the best method of that is. i do see some members make an effort, regularly, to leave a nice comment or "welcome" message when a new member posts something, kudos to them! new members can be irregular though too. they may just post once, not say anything and that's basically it lol :D not knowing why has always perplexed me.
+1
posted on #6
rootshell Supporter
Posts: 335
Joined: Jul 4, 2020
seriouss wrote:
i also don't befriend some of the members or beg for anything


i do find this comment interesting. is it more of just your personality? like in person, would you be less likely to engage someone in conversation? sorry for the direct question, just curious, and not trying to single you out in a bad way seriouss, just curious :) we all are different and i respect that :) i do like to engage with someone, especially if they have a sense of humor :)
+1
posted on #7
seriouss
Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Aug 24, 2014
okay, I am not really sure if I understand the question.
hm, i guess I don't like to talk a lot. At least to people I don't
know..well, I am doing a kind of online and telephone support in a
small machine factory. That's kind of worldwide - that may start with some support in Australia and ends with calls from America.
I also used to visit customers as service technician for maybe 10 years, but since about 2020 I mainly work in the office.
Well I prefer to do service only with chat and teamviewer, but I also have to talk a lot.
My wife is originally from China and I have a chinese step son that studies informatics ( he nearly ever talks -somehow really cool ) and a 10 years daughter ( she really talks a lot ).
I very rarly meet friends- maybe once or twice the year.
I liked rock music since I was about 11 I guess.
I think it started when I starteed listening to my sisters ( 6 years older)records.
She had not a lot , but really good stuff
like Pink Floyd, Beatles blue and red, Queen , Deep Purple , and the Led Zep 3 iwht that old guy in front of the house.
I really liked to listen to "black dog" and "rock'n roll".
With 16 I think I bought my first drum and tried to teach myself a little. I used to play a little with a guy I knew from the football club. He started to play in a punk band and asked me if I wanted to play drums. I think we practiced 3 times and then I had to play my first live gig with some other bands - it was horrible.
But this band really played a lot. I think 93 we recorded and album and had some songs on some samplers. I think 96 I quit the band because I messed my study at the university in Cologne. So I had no real job and had a hard time getting everything straight again.
The time in the band I played drum , but I never really learned it.
I always had to play at the limits and no real time or chance to practice. It was always ...play as fast as possible.
So later I still wanted to learn and bought a chep edrum and then already became a member at wikiloops. But i only had time at the weekend. I was still travelling at that time- so it was like coming from the airport or a long drive with the car home on Fridays...everybody in bed ..then start to jam and record something to a template in wikiloops - like trashing around to release some stress ( I really really hat airports ).
Much more there is probably not to say - I still like music, but have much more time to relax - I like hang around in my private room when everybody is in bed - practice drum or bass or watch a movie, remix something. I started to listen to a lot of dub and reggae. I really like that. I don't do anything in social networks and don't car much about my looks and I guess I am pretty much myself . I am definetely nobdy special and also do not try to be - private chats I try to avoid and like to keep a little distance - ( befriend people ) Since I don't really write music or play a melodic instrument ( I own a guitar but nearly ever practice ) I don't post any musical ideas myself , thats something I'd really to do but am a bit shy I guess.
Here at wikiloops we all sometimes go a bit "ego trippin" , that something that can make me angry and I start arguing ...hm, may seem senseless, well I guess I think I will just have to say it this moment ....apologies, like posting a remix and then listening to it next day ...uh, everybody might know that.
Elsewise not much to say, I hope that was not too much. Also not really funny ....cheers :D:D
+3
posted on #8
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 207
Joined: Mar 19, 2022
@seriouss: I think that penultimate paragraph describes something quite a few people can relate to. But, isn't it one of the advantages of Wikiloops that you can participate from a safe distance and stay anonymous?

Just my very own personal opinion, but if newbies think that there's an expectation that they have to be on a professional level, crack jokes and engage with other members, I think they're getting the wrong impression. It's the love of music first and the rest is an optional extra.

Final thought: just for fun I retraced the musical development of a particular member here. Started out shy and timid and is now one of my favorite musicians here. Message is: let's learn and improve together.

(Why the hell am I writing this as a relative newbie myself? Doubtless some Wikiloops grandad will put me in my place as I've got it all wrong. Just beware, while you've only got 4 strings I've got 88 keys, and some of them are black. See if I care) :P
+1
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posted on #9
mrsasandco Supporter
Posts: 43
Joined: Mar 7, 2021
Hi everyone,
It's so hard to reply to everyone, to notice everyone's efforts. Personally, I came here to get away from the traditional backings tracks on which you play without knowing who's been involved. I naturally gravitated towards the style and tracks I liked. Then I noticed a few people that I found more often because of this targeted research. They're not necessarily new or old members. Some of them systematically look at what I do and I have to admit that it's gratifying. For my part, I can't do it because I don't have the time, and here I spend just as much time translating my comments (I'm wary of automatic translators), so I've reduced my contributions, not because I want to, but mainly because I want to remain myself and not fall into an excess of empathy that often distorts relationships. I had a similar experience on Facebook, which I left because by the end I felt like I was swimming in a river of hypocrisy. The principle of wikiloops allows new members to integrate into a piece whatever it is and with whoever it is. Affinities may or may not be created as in everyday life, and in the same way, why not a friendship (exceptional case)?
Taking a look at a new member is a fine undertaking that the ‘pillars’ of wikiloops practice as a sign of welcome. But this cannot continue and it is up to the member to find his or her own way. Of course, after this idyllic introduction, frustration sets in as the ego takes over. It's imperative to understand at this point that it's not the others who are losing interest, it's yourself who wants too much.
The most important thing here is not to spoil your pleasure and especially that of others, to accept what you are and to play. Right from the start I was trying too hard, leaving little room for others. It's a natural reaction when you come from traditional backings. Since then I've corrected this way of doing things, having realised that it's thanks to the other musicians that I'm here. From that point on, new or not, wikiloops becomes a fine ship with a fine crew. So whoever you are, come on deck.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)
+3
posted on #10
mrsasandco Supporter
Posts: 43
Joined: Mar 7, 2021
[quote]MySounds wrote:


Final thought: just for fun I retraced the musical development of a particular member here. Started out shy and timid and is now one of my favorite musicians here. Message is: let's learn and improve together.

Thank you MySounds for following my evolution, my ego is in full delirium. 😂😂😂😂
+1
posted on #11
DidierS Supporter
Posts: 106
Joined: Jan 18, 2024
"- proposing marriage to Shi"
...????
posted on #12
Wade Supporter
Posts: 529
Joined: Nov 25, 2013
It's probably initially difficult for many new members who are uploading to understand why an initial welcome isn't followed by lots of listens to subsequent tracks.

I'm certainly guilty of welcoming new players, but not always following up to hear what they are doing. The reality is having enough time.

What's the answer? I'm not sure three is one. Maybe a newbie creche? New members who are uploading could be formed into a group who can support each other? Trying to catch the attention of older members who may already have a lot of people they follow can be difficult.

Not sure how/if this could work, yet getting mutual support is probably very important. Having others who are also new being listened to by similarly new players may give the needed support. It's kind of an "old school" classmate thing where one graduates yet retains allegiances that can last.

It's over to those in "the engine room" to ponder this and lump the new uploaders into a discrete (time related) group that makes them all temporary followers of each other. Maybe that expires after 1/2 year?

What must be faced is that large numbers of members means that gaining exposure and followers becomes more difficult. If new members support each other then it gives them a while to understand what this place is about and to share with a much smaller group. Being in the creche wouldn't stop them from downloading anything, posting anything, or being heard by others outside the creche. It's simply being automatically part of a group of followers getting notices of new tracks in your group.


What do you think? Other ideas anyone?
+1
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posted on #13
Karuma
Member
Posts: 16
Joined: Aug 28, 2022
@Bradford: It's interesting what you wrote about that filter option to find active(!) newbies. I made a small layout proposal for the user page a couple of weeks ago that I would like to share with you.
I will try to implement that functionality as soon as I have some time ;)
Karuma attached the following image:


+4
posted on #14
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 207
Joined: Mar 19, 2022
@Wade
I like the idea of grouping but my gut feeling is that just putting people with the same characteristics (i.e. newbie) together might be counterproductive. But if we happen to have folks interested in acting as guides or mentors for a group (similar to our moderators) that might help getting at least some newbies across the line between being a member and becoming an active participant.

I appreciate the informal and intuitive way in which Dick and the moderators manage Wikiloops in the background but I wonder if doing something like a survey, say for the last 100 newcomers, might help in better understanding what the threshold is, what might help them.
posted on #15
Wade Supporter
Posts: 529
Joined: Nov 25, 2013
Everybody here has been a newbie here as well as elsewhere so it's not like these are alien life forms that need probing. There are several of us on Wikiloops who make an effort to welcome new members, however it's likely that nobody has the time or inclination to take on a group of newbies, listen to their tracks and comment and encourage. I do what I can, as do a few others.

There are limits. My average listening and commenting time is between two and three hours on days that I can manage it. I'd be surprised if many others are willing to dedicate that kind of time. If I were trying to follow a group of 50 newbies that could take another hour or two depending on how often they post. Some newbies post daily or even several posts a day... for a while.

If a group of 50 newbies are all tied to each other by receiving notification of tracks posted by their group (like they are all following each other) then they can listen to each other and grow as a group.

I frankly can't see any other way as I seriously doubt that there are a lot of members who have the time or inclination to dedicate to this sort of task.
+1
posted on #16
MySounds Supporter
Posts: 207
Joined: Mar 19, 2022
You're right. I should have done the maths. :@
+1
posted on #17
kah wah ta Supporter
Posts: 2
Joined: Jun 15, 2021
I am really a newbie at the flute...but since joining WL...have learnt how to play/record better at my flutes.

I guess, for a newbie...you have to listen to others, then download and add on and learn from the feedback to be better...OR you can download an original and let others add on/comment.

I did have to dip my toes into the pond in both above ways and then add other musicians that you come across to your following...this way experiential listening and improving may occur ( provided one also keep practicing often ).

I did have to ask myself each time I add on if my add-on enhances the template...a degree of self-criticism but which makes me yearn to make better add-ons.

This is my experience at WL and hope it encourages other newbies to dip their toes into the pond enthusiastically
+4
posted on #18
Krasimir Supporter
Posts: 213
Joined: Jan 24, 2016
Acceptance and encouraging of new members of Wikiloops is of course an important process.Every one of us is with diferent personality and playing capability and every member is here to enjoy playing music. As per my understanding this is A and B of Wikiloops as musical site and community.Relations between members should. be also based on created
music files, jamming style, etc. Creating of groups if this is simultaneous is ok, if is based on other relations also. But basically wikiloops giving options for creating bands and this is the best. So as per me initial welcome msg is enough. Rest is music and relations based on various music themes.
+2
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posted on #19
wjl Supporter
Posts: 844
Joined: Feb 14, 2018
Here's one for all newbies (or those not even members yet):
[img]https://wloops2.r.worldssl.net/galleries/53023/files/36a9e1d43fb9b4f41ba601b27026d661.jpg[/img]
+2
posted on #20
seriouss
Member
Posts: 80
Joined: Aug 24, 2014
maybe we should at least leave the newbie room to the newbies.
:D
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